Joe_Adams

DVD RW Format Wars - Which one's winning?

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There is absolutely nothing wrong with VCD results, nor do I think they are inaccurate, but taking the numbers out of context makes any results bogus.  The results at VCDhelp, state that the DVD-R has been tested compatible with about 400 more players, not that it is compatible with 400 more players.  There is a significant difference between the two statements.  DVD+R could very well be compatible with all of them, and unless you want to go out and buy all those DVD players and test them yourself, you cannot argue in the contrary.

yes, he can. furthermore, an unbiased sampling has already been presented. you can't argue about 'the great unknown'.

i cannot seem to locate any fuschia polka dot refrigerators that come stock from the factory with exactly THREE twizzlers in the freezer. does that mean i should assume that the product DOES exist until i document every refrigerator on the face of the planet?

the burden of proof is yours. it is YOUR responsibility to PROVE your point, not to arbitrarily question the (veritable, unbiased) evidence presented to you in the hopes of disproving the other point.

I got my results from PCWorld who themselves did not do the testing.  They posted results done by Pioneer and some third party research firm which would be 2 seperate testings in a controlled enviroment with all formats on equal ground.  Both confirmed that DVD+R had higher compatibility than DVD-R using different pools of DVD players.

funny, i don't see a link

Absolutely, if you pay $250,000 for an exotic sportscar that gets 10MPG no one wants to hear you bitching about the high cost of gas.  You spend $4000 on a DVD player and no one wants to here you complaining about spending $.30 or less more for DVD writeable media.

while 'no one wants to HERE them complaining', they have every right to. one could make a strong case for saying buying a 4k dvd player isn't the same as buying a 250k sportscar - especially if that person appears to be in the dvd authoring/producing business - but it doesn't even matter. even if somebody were to make an unconscionably frivelous purchasing decision, it doesn't mean that they're not allowed to be frugal from that point forward. the actions are independent.

Seeing how defensive you're getting about it, you probably are.

what does this have to do with anything?

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Seeing how defensive you're getting about it, you probably are.

yeah, you found me out. if the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear about massive duplication jobs is a piracy ring, you're either a fan of conspiracy theories or you run one yourself. it takes one to know one right?

when i use less expensive quality media i maximize profit. something you probably don't know about since you recommend buing from CompUSA.

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funny, i don't see a link

That's because PCWorld is a magazine and it's tough to post a link to page 45 or something. Even so, one of the articles they posted does have some of the results. The print version (December 2002) has a seperate article about it including the Pioneer tests which were a bit closer for the 2 sets of competing formats:

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,a...48,pg,14,00.asp

"We tried six write-once DVD discs (three DVD-Rs and three DVD+Rs) in a selection of 11 DVD players, all of which were released over the last couple of years. The results of our tests were promising: 10 of the units played all of the recorded video without problems. Only one (a Yamaha DVD-S520) refused to play the DVD-R discs, which were supplied by Verbatim. Note, however, that our tests covered only a small number of players, all of which were fairly new models. A recent study by Intellikey Labs says that DVD+R discs worked in 90 percent of the players in its tests, while DVD-R worked in 77 percent. For rewritable discs, Intellikey found that +RW worked in 72 percent of players, while -RW worked in 66 percent. Though results vary and the data isn't exhaustive, DVD+R discs seem to work in more players than DVD-R discs do."

There you go.

Note also that PCWorld's top pick for DVD writers is a + drive:

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,a...d,103121,00.asp

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funny, i don't see a link

That's because PCWorld is a magazine and it's tough to post a link to page 45 or something. Even so, one of the articles they posted does have some of the results. The print version (December 2002) has a seperate article about it including the Pioneer tests which were a bit closer for the 2 sets of competing formats:

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,a...48,pg,14,00.asp

"We tried six write-once DVD discs (three DVD-Rs and three DVD+Rs) in a selection of 11 DVD players, all of which were released over the last couple of years. The results of our tests were promising: 10 of the units played all of the recorded video without problems. Only one (a Yamaha DVD-S520) refused to play the DVD-R discs, which were supplied by Verbatim. Note, however, that our tests covered only a small number of players, all of which were fairly new models. A recent study by Intellikey Labs says that DVD+R discs worked in 90 percent of the players in its tests, while DVD-R worked in 77 percent. For rewritable discs, Intellikey found that +RW worked in 72 percent of players, while -RW worked in 66 percent. Though results vary and the data isn't exhaustive, DVD+R discs seem to work in more players than DVD-R discs do."

There you go.

Note also that PCWorld's top pick for DVD writers is a + drive:

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,103121,00.asp

I don't think anybody wonders why PCworld site statistics like this, whereas no body else does. Kinda makes you think there figures aren't on the up-and-up.

Let's keep in mind that statisitics for DVD-r compatibility generally includes hardware going back several years, whereas dvd+ comparisions tend to include only recent models. The reason why dvd-r compatibility lists from other than pcworld show dvd-r as twice as compatble is because dvd+r has very poor compatibility with older hardare. more recent hardware they run very close.

Still DVD-r, due to it's greater presense, lower costs, greater compatibility - not to mention the fact the other recording formats can be added to the standard, such as mt ranier, with a simple vote of the dvd forum(since the limitation is not with the media being used, but the software being used with it), is the winner.

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i had the link already :) now, for a few of my own:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,640404,00.asp says pioneer's own study and mentions that intellikey's study was funded by 'an anonymous source'

http://hardware.earthweb.com/news/article/...1466521,00.html says intellikey's tests were done using only 2 brands of media for each format, while pioneer used a variety of brands and the exact same 100 dvd players (manufactured 1999-2002)

they both got identical results on the rw bit

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i had the link already :)  now, for a few of my own:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,640404,00.asp says pioneer's own study and mentions that intellikey's study was funded by 'an anonymous source'

http://hardware.earthweb.com/news/article/...1466521,00.html says intellikey's tests were done using only 2 brands of media for each format, while pioneer used a variety of brands and the exact same 100 dvd players (manufactured 1999-2002)

they both got identical results on the rw bit

Thank's honold for bringing us the important truth.

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a few notes:

i meant to say 'declares pioneer's own study' etc

the rw bit was in reference to unreadables

it's very important to note that vcdhelp has 466individual dvd-r compatible players and 78 individual dvd+r compatible players - 384 players are compatible with both. these numbers are an order of magnitude greater than the 100 sampled by both intellikey and pioneer.

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wow, i didn't even notice the stats they provide in the search:

820 DVD Players support DVDR 87%

118 DVD Players do not support DVDR 13%

938 DVD Players tested (887 DVD Players are not tested).

433 DVD Players support DVDPLUSR 82%

97 DVD Players do not support DVDPLUSR 18%

530 DVD Players tested (1295 DVD Players are not tested).

so the percentages are pretty good for both. dvd-r still has a higher compatibility percentage with almost double the sampling rate.

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"says pioneer's own study and mentions that intellikey's study was funded by 'an anonymous source'"

Uh yeah, once again giving half the story. Look at the first paragraph.

"That's one conclusion drawn from a September study by Intellikey Laboratories, which contradicts another study it performed for Pioneer Electronic."

In other words, Intellikey did both of them. The article also goes on to say:

"Lars Keffer, managing director of Intellikey, speculated that Pioneer might have a "vested interest" in releasing its own results."

So you if you are going to accuse one side of potential cheating, you need to accuse both sides.

I had it reversed to, it was the RW formats that + won both studies while the write once was the closer one. My mistake.

One last thing to add,

"intellikey's tests were done using only 2 brands of media for each format"

And they tell you which 2 they used. Now if you know that you can achieve 90% compatability with those 2 brands why would you go with anything else? Let's see someone pick 2 brands for the -R and get 90% or better. They very well may be able to, I am not claiming they can't, and I think that would be more useful to a user than knowing you can get 78% with a large variety which they don't even list.

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Intellikey's study, released a day before Pioneer's, was funded by an anonymous client, he says.

he being lars keffer, is this not clear?

the bit at the top may be a typo or some kind of word jumbling, the anonymous client bit is a direct quote.

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I understand that, but that still doesn't dispute what the article says, that Intellikey performed the testing for both, one for Pioneer and one funded by an anyonymous source.

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how does 87% on 820 random dvd players (as opposed to 100 specific ones) manufactured at no specific date (as opposed to 1999-2002) using random media (as opposed to 2 specific brands) and random video (as opposed to 1 video) sound?

as a consumer, that sounds much better to me.

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i haven't seen that or any other article that claims + has better compatibility than - in players that are already in homes.  http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php is a smaller sampling, but a valid, veritable metric.  811 dvd-r compatible, 417 dvd+r compatible.

has anybody taken a look at the percentages of the players that are compatible with each format? 87% support -r, 82% support +r. i dont believe that that is a great enough difference for compatibility to be a large factor in these discussions.

I think vchhelp.com will give you more accurate representation of the compatibility. Their listing reveals 819 DVD players with dvd-r support to 430 with dvd+ support.

dvd+ did not live up to the hype of compatibility.

did you even read my post? :roll:

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After reading all of the above, and catching all of the emotional overtones in so many of the messages, I think that the only REAL winners of the DVD format wars will be the people that hold off on buying one for another 6-12 months...

Future Shock

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or the people who don't give a stinker because whatever drive they have is doing what they need it to and is compatible with what they need it to be, since they're going to buy another one in a year anyway

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yes, the sony dru-500a.  it goes for around $330-$350 and is in very short supply.

the pioneer 105/a05 (minus, 5th version of the drive) is about $270 and is widely available.

if they were the same price, i would buy the sony, but it's not worth $50-$70 to have the 'idea' of more compatibility when my players already support minus and i'll have a new drive before i'm using windows longhorn anyway.

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Short supply? If here in Finland I saw 50 on the shelf and all major stores have it, I don't see how it can be in short supply in the U.S. My friend in Boston said they have plenty of them there as well.

As for the price premium, it is about 30$= nothing.

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Short supply? If here in Finland I saw 50 on the shelf and all major stores have it, I don't see how it can be in short supply in the U.S. My friend in Boston said they have plenty of them there as well.

As for the price premium, it is about 30$= nothing.

A search on pricewatch for the DRU-500A gives 7 results, total. Only seven stores list it on pricewatch. A search on pricewatch for DVD-A05 gives 5 pages of results with 15 listings per pages.

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"how does 87% on 820 random dvd players (as opposed to 100 specific ones) manufactured at no specific date (as opposed to 1999-2002) using random media (as opposed to 2 specific brands) and random video (as opposed to 1 video) sound?

as a consumer, that sounds much better to me."

Yea, and the average consumer is not the most informed shopper nor do they understand what the quoted statistics mean, which includes you. The VCDHelp numbers do not show 87% compatability using random media on 870 players as you say. What the numbers show is that 87% of players will work with at least one brand of media. You may need to use 12 different brands of media to achieve that 87%, having to figure out which combination of player and media are the compatible one. If VCDHelp included each brand that didn't work with a player as a failure even if another brand worked (the method the 2 surveys above did), the percentage would be no where near 87%.

As a consumer I want to know what the ideal combination is, and if I know I can get 90% compatability using either of 2 brands, that's the format I am going with, and those are the 2 brands of media I will buy.

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i haven't seen that or any other article that claims + has better compatibility than - in players that are already in homes.  http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php is a smaller sampling, but a valid, veritable metric.  811 dvd-r compatible, 417 dvd+r compatible.

has anybody taken a look at the percentages of the players that are compatible with each format? 87% support -r, 82% support +r. i dont believe that that is a great enough difference for compatibility to be a large factor in these discussions.

I think vchhelp.com will give you more accurate representation of the compatibility. Their listing reveals 819 DVD players with dvd-r support to 430 with dvd+ support.

dvd+ did not live up to the hype of compatibility.

did you even read my post? :roll:

Yes, you will note I supported your argument.

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I have not had any compatability issues with dvd-r, and I only use cheap media. The first 50 pack I bought was the cheapest I could find. No issues save with the Toshiba player I mentioned before. I'm now using 2X media, the cheapest I could find almost (I only buy from reputable dealers), still no issues. Have not tried it in the toshiba. Who knows, maybe it would work, that would bring my experience to 100% compatibility for DVD-R.

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DVD-R is the winner for two reasons:

1. What's in a name? The name DVD-R just sounds better to me. I already know CD-R so DVD-R sounds like it should be the logical progression. This +R crap is weird. DVD+R. It just sounds funny.

Think my logic is silly? Naming is a big part in the marketing game. The masses don't care that +R is technically superior. Wonder why OGG won't gain any significant use among the masses? The name. Ogg Vorbis. Heheheheh... MP3 just sounds cool. Ogg Vorbis sounds dorky. Betamax vs. VHS. Betamax = cheezy dorky name. VHS = cool name. The masses vote for the cool names.

2. And the #1 reason DVD-R wins is the media price. If DVD+R had burners at the same cost as DVD-R but with media half the price of DVD-R, the masses wouldn't care about the name.

Lots of the cheap DVD-R media is kinda crappy, but Accu's DVD-R are decent:

http://store.yahoo.com/cdrdvdrmedia/higqual47dvm6.html

The first 50 I got looked as if they had been hand packed. Lots of smudges on the top side and the occasional lint or smudge on the bottom. I even saw a fingerprint once. The latest 50 pack seems fine though. They work well at 1x as long as you don't go over 4.2 GB per disc and check each disc for cleanliness, and if necessary clean with eyeglass cleaner and lint free tissues and/or compressed air, before burning.

What? Not everyone has an air compressor and eyeglass cleaning stuff near their computer? Huh. Guess I'm still kind of a dork.. icon_rolleyes.gif

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A search on pricewatch for the DRU-500A gives 7 results, total. Only seven stores list it on pricewatch. A search on pricewatch for DVD-A05 gives 5 pages of results with 15 listings per pages.

Do you enjoy lying or what's your deal? You're right that searching for DVD-A05 turns up 5 pages of results. However, you "conveniently" failed to mention that the first 2 and 1/2 pages don't contain a single listing of the drive, just media and other various items. Then when the drives begin to show up, still interspersed with other products, practically every company has multiple listings, one for retail, one for OEM. I ran a search for the 2 drives on shopper.com and yahoo shopping, and turned up about 20 legitimate results for the Sony drive on yahoo, and 14 for shopper.com, while yahoo only turned up 5 results for the Pioneer, and shopper.com turned up none (there are 15 listings for DVR-A05). It should be noted as well that all the local retail outlets here have the Sony drive while Pioneer with its near zero retail presence for computer parts can't be found.

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