Joe_Adams

DVD RW Format Wars - Which one's winning?

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The three largest and most influential PC and electronics companies in Europe: Siemens, Philips, and Thomson. They support DVD+RW and not DVD-RW/-RAM.

The two most important PC hardware companies in the US and the whole world: HP (including Compaq) and Dell.

The largest and most important software company is of course Microsoft and Microsoft is the strongest supporter of Mt. Rainier and DVD+RW.

And Ricoh, Yamaha, Mitsumi, Sony, LiteOn, LG, Ritek, Taiyo Yuden, Mitsubishi (Verbatim), Hitachi (Maxell), NEC, and hundreds of others.

1. DVD+RW is not revolutionary compared to DVD-RW. It is a standard to be better than DVD-RW but the base technologies are about the same. Technologically, DVD+RW is ahead of DVD-RW.

2. The more recent reviews and consumer reports favor DVD+RW more and more because DVD+R drives and media have existed on the market for only 3/4 year. There are simply more DVD-R users than DVD+R users in VCDHelp and that is why there are more DVD-Video players that are reported to be compatible with DVD-R media. 

3. Sony has always been into both DVD-R/-RW and DVD+R/+RW. It doesn't matter whether Sony is pro-Plus or pro-Dash but it does matter that Sony does support DVD+RW. When does a large company support an additional standard when it has already products based on similar one?

It must be clear to everyone who has read all the above posts that there's no chance DVD+RW will just go away but why are some people still saying DVD+RW is not a standard and only ignorant PC users invest in it?

Seems you forgot about the standards body, the dvd forum, which backs dvd-r.

I'll be laughing when dvd+r drives and media start disappeareing from the market.

hp is not a technology leader, never has been. Same for dell. Apple, and IBM, sun, are the technology leaders.

I checked out sony's site, they still only offer dvd-r drives with their PC. Seems people are making crap up to support there views.

Every dvd player I own, and owned by people I know, save one, a toshiba(none are sony's), can play the dvd-r disks I create. Lets not forget who backed beta, which failed. While we are at it, a reminder. The winner will be the one with the most presence, the best value, and the least royalties. DVD-R has a 6 year lead. They have the presense. DVD-r disk are the cheapest and most readily available(including dvd-R/W. Go to pricewatch.com, under storage, select media. There will be several subcatagories for dvd-r,r/w, not one for dvd+r,r/w. dvd-r is an industry standard from the dvd forum, the same standards group that brough us dvd in the first place, backed by many more companies than sony, phillips hp and the couple others, and it is not the proprietary format with royalties to sony and phillips.

DVD-r has already won. Just some suckers out there buying what is just a short term product to recover developmet costs before it fades from existance. What people cite as its benefit over dvd-r(which aplies strictly to the R/w disk, means little since most people use the write once disks, and the other being rewritable, both the + and - versions so means very little. that MS will support the + version doesn't mean squat. Most cd burning programs already support dvd-r, what most people will be using. Who give a crap? I sure don't.

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I see you are so loyal to the minus format. You don't really have to be completely ignorant to be a fanatic.

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Oooh the DVD Forum. The people we can thank for bullcrap region coding which is simply a means of creating artificial price barriers. Yup, I really care what they want me to buy. :roll:

You will notice that the home DVD video recorder market is almost exclusively DVD+RW based. As prices tumble they will only get more popular. Personally I use DVD-R for video, and DVD+RW for data. Best of both worlds.

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Oooh the DVD Forum. The people we can thank for bullcrap region coding which is simply a means of creating artificial price barriers. Yup, I really care what they want me to buy.  :roll: 

You will notice that the home DVD video recorder market is almost exclusively DVD+RW based. As prices tumble they will only get more popular. Personally I use DVD-R for video, and DVD+RW for data. Best of both worlds.

You are wrong about the dvd recorders. I can't seem to find any that are plus. Most are dvd-ram, what others I can find are dvd-r.

You'll have to provide something just to show the dvd+r video recorder even exist.

Pioneer introduced the first dvd recorder in 1996.

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"hp is not a technology leader, never has been. Same for dell. Apple, and IBM, sun, are the technology leaders."

Ignoring what you think of HP, you don't have to be a tech leader to be a market selling leader. HP sold a ton of CDRW drives and they will continue to be a market leader in optical writers as they have moved to DVD drives. Apple, IBM, and Sun make or sell optical drives so I don't see their relevance here.

"I checked out sony's site, they still only offer dvd-r drives with their PC. Seems people are making crap up to support there views."

I don't see anyone disputing that. Show me where they sell a DVD-R drive that is not in a PC. You can't because they don't make one, whatever is in their PC is made by someone else.

"Lets not forget who backed beta, which failed."

If you call being the industry standard in broadcasting and video production a failure, I guess so. BetaMax did not gain acceptance in the consumer market but was in no way a failure as a format.

"DVD-r disk are the cheapest and most readily available(including dvd-R/W. Go to pricewatch.com, under storage, select media."

Who buys media online? Everyone I know goes to the local BB or CompUSA to buy media and there is no shortage of availability for either format there. You're trying to make it look like you have to search high and low to find + media which is completely false, you can find it practically everywhere. You're right that there is no dirt cheap generic media for +R which in my book is a good thing. Look around message boards and see all the posts of what garbage cheap -R media is. Most won't even burn at 2x which is a joke. Anyone who actually owns a burner will only recommend that you use quality media.

"backed by many more companies than sony, phillips hp and the couple others"

Where are you getting your information from BBspot? Practically every major CDR company that has released a DVD drive has a DVD+ drive except for Toshiba and Pioneer. The + camp has more exclusive members than -R does and that is very easy to look up.

"and it is not the proprietary format with royalties to sony and phillips."

Uhh, what are you talking about? The format is not proprietary.

"that MS will support the + version doesn't mean squat."

Maybe not to an 31337 h4X0r like yourself, but to the average Joe it means a lot.

"Most cd burning programs already support dvd-r, what most people will be using."

Once again you don't know what you are talking about. The built in support is not about standard burning, all drives obviously come with the necessary software to begin with, the MS support brings native Mt Ranier support which is a very nice feature to have.

"You are wrong about the dvd recorders. I can't seem to find any that are plus. Most are dvd-ram, what others I can find are dvd-r.

You'll have to provide something just to show the dvd+r video recorder even exist."

Again, proving you are more interesting in talking trash than actually providing any useful information to people trying to learn about these products. Rather than providing and links or references to anything to back up your blunt claims you seem more interested in arguing. Both Philips and Yamaha currently have products on the market. Do some more research on this subject before spouting off like everything you say is gospel.

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Oooh the DVD Forum. The people we can thank for bullcrap region coding which is simply a means of creating artificial price barriers. Yup, I really care what they want me to buy.  :roll:

Pradeep,

AFAIK, the reason for Region Coding has much more to do with the variable release dates for first-run films across geographies than with price barriers. For example here in the US July and August are when studios release some of their biggest movies - but in Europe NOBODY goes to the movies in the summer, they are all on vacation and at the beach, so first run blockbusters get saved and released in the fall or holiday time. The studios would like to be able to release the DVD version a consistent time after the theater release - so Region 1 DVDs for the movie could be released X months after the US release, followed by the Region 2 DVDs in say 6 months, after the film had had a run in European theaters.

Take away region coding, and either the studios have to release films at the same time around the world (even if that's really not convienient to the public), or wait until all the theatrical runs are complete before releasing the DVD (meaning the US has to wait longer for the DVD). Neither are great solutions, so Region Coding is considered the lesser of the evils...it IS inconvenient, but I don't have a better solution myself, at least not one thet will not impact my desire to get the DVD version of some movies ASAP...

Future Shock

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You are wrong about the dvd recorders.  I can't seem to find any that are plus.  Most are dvd-ram, what others I can find are dvd-r.

You'll have to provide something just to show the dvd+r video recorder even exist.

Pioneer introduced the first dvd recorder in 1996.

http://dvdplusrw.org/video/overview_video.html

8 Models under the Philips brand, 1 model under Yamaha.

Not to mention the TV spots Philips has been putting out all

thru the holiday season for their DVD video recorder.

(The ones with the couple converting their wedding tapes to DVD).

You can do better that that Picard. :roll:

If you call being the industry standard in broadcasting and video production a failure, I guess so. BetaMax did not gain acceptance in the consumer market but was in no way a failure as a format.

NitPick: A lot of people confuse BetaMax (the consumer format) with

BetaCam (the broadcasting format). While they share a point

of origin, they are not the same thing. BetaMax (AFAIK) never was a

standard in the broadcast industry. In either case, Sony managed to

make both BetaMax and BetaCam last just as long as the other technologies they compete with.

(Yes, Sony recently announced it was dropping production for BetaMax

format, but the rest of the industry has been moving away from VHS

as well for a couple of years now.)

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Anyone who knows anything about dvds knows that dvdplusrw.org is a crap site full of misinformation. These are the same people that said that you cannot have vbr mpeg2 streams on a dvd-r as well as other bs.

Even if the dvd+r/w is technically superior, the key features that everyone is interested in are:

1. cost of the drive

2. compatibility with settops

3. recording speed

4. cost of media

for #1 the drives cost about the same, #2 dvd-r wins, #3 same speed, #4 dvd-r wins again.

and lets stop talking theory here and start backing up some of those arguments with hands on experience.

I had an opportunity to test most dvd+r/w as well as -r/w drives and I stayed with -R/W. Hell, I don't even use the -RW feature, never had the need to use CD-RW either. I have DLT for backup.

The drives I woked with - HP DVD100i (rebadged ricoh mp5120a), HP DVD200i (rebadged ricoh mp5125a), Ricoh MP5120 original, Sony DRU-500A, Pioneer S201 (authoring), Pioneer DVR-103, Pioneer DVR-104, Pioneer DVR-105.

All of the above mentioned + drives produced discs that had problems playing in older settops. I can't have that because I burn a lot. And not just for myself. So while + can be ok for your home uses and your new shiny Panasonic DVD-RP82S (my current value settop of choice) it may not play for your friends or customers that have other less compatible settops.

For compatibility testing I used the following settops I own:

Camelot Roundtable

Pioneer DV-525

Pioneer DV-C503

Panasonic DVD-RP82S

Denon DVD-1600

I'd also like to not that if you're using high end dvd players like the Camelot you have no chance in hell with +, it will only play high quality brand name DVD-R or DVD-Authoring discs. Verbatim worked well with it and it can be found for around 2.50ea. For my everyday volume burning I use Lead Data or Ritek G03 generics which can be found for less than a dollar.

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You are wrong about the dvd recorders.  I can't seem to find any that are plus.  Most are dvd-ram, what others I can find are dvd-r.

You'll have to provide something just to show the dvd+r video recorder even exist.

Pioneer introduced the first dvd recorder in 1996.

http://dvdplusrw.org/video/overview_video.html

8 Models under the Philips brand, 1 model under Yamaha.

Not to mention the TV spots Philips has been putting out all

thru the holiday season for their DVD video recorder.

(The ones with the couple converting their wedding tapes to DVD).

You can do better that that Picard. :roll:

I see how I missed them, I was checking out regular retail channels. Did not occur to me to go to a site dedicated to dvd+. I wouldn't have anyway, I was looking for what's available. IF they aren't in the regualr retail channels, they might as well not exist.

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Hi Guys

Thanks for the large number of interesting posts to this question.

The one thing which strikes me most after reading through all of replies, is that the large majority of people are interested in recordable DVDs because they want to burn movies and watch them in a set top box.

For this DVD-R is to me the number one logical choice for all the reasons mentioned above (cheapness of media, more compatibility, etc).

However, I am surely not the only person to see the great potential for using DVDs for backup purposes in small companies. This is why I purchased my DVD+RW drive, and I have no plans to even think about using it to burn movies for the foreseeable future.

Therefore, what I am looking for is the utmost in reliability and data integrity above anything else. Every article of information I have read indicates that DVD+RW is the better format for data storage, which is why I went out and bought a DVD+RW drive and a stack of high quality media to go with it.

Compared to tape drives and cassettes, providing your storage requirements are met by 4.5 GB limit, DVD+RW is great choice for backing up and archiving data. I use Aheads InCD to drag and drop backup files over to disk. This has worked faultlessly on my machine for many weeks.

So long as DVD+RW media is readily available, I'm happy. I don't care one bit if it costs a few pounds more than DVD-RW, being as I am saving a fortune not having to use tape backups.

Maybe no one format will win the war... Maybe it will be the norm that all future DVD drives support DVD-R/W for burning movies and the "technically superior" DVD+RW for data.

Surely, as a knowledgeable technical community, we should all be supporting DVD+RW as the best choice for data storage?

Personally I don't feel I would be happy backing up my companies data onto DVD-RW, a format which sounds to me like it was rushed out the door a long time ago before much thought was given to reliability, random access, background formatting, loss-linking, Mt Rainer support, etc.

Joe

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A lot of people confuse BetaMax (the consumer format) with 

BetaCam (the broadcasting format). While they share a point 

of origin, they are not the same thing.

Yes, I am aware the 2 are differetm BetaCam uses larger tapes. It depends on where you go as to which they use, but the fact remains that the two are based on the saem technology.

"#2 dvd-r wins,"

Not according to Pioneer who doesn't make + drives. I have yet to see any report anywhere that claims DVD-R is moe compatible than DVD+R.

"#4 dvd-r wins again"

Only sometimes. Even you admit that the cheap media is less compatible than quality media. I'm not going to use substandard discs for my data when the whole reason for putting the data on a disc is to keep it safe.

"'d also like to not that if you're using high end dvd players like the Camelot you have no chance in hell with +, it will only play high quality brand name DVD-R or DVD-Authoring discs."

You spend 4 grand on a DVD player then bitch about DVD+ media costing a $1 or 2 more? Sounds rather hypocritical to me. I have a much more modest, though still above typical consumer level, Sony DVP-9000ES and it plays + media fine along with every other DVD player I have tried except for +RW in an original PS2, which I wouldn't use for movie watching in a million years.

"I see how I missed them, I was checking out regular retail channels."

You're full of it. Not only have I seen some of these players at local retailers, but I looked online just now, and they are available at numerous electronics e-tailers.

"Did not occur to me to go to a site dedicated to dvd"

I looked at both Yamaha's and Philip's site and they are right where you would expect them to be listed. I don't know where you were looking if you couldn't find them there.

FYI, here's a link listing some compatible players for + media from HP. Sure would be nice if Pioneer or someone would do the same for - media:

http://www.hp.com/cposupport/information_s...c/lpg41401.html

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I have found the following players work fine with both DVD-R and DVD+R.

Apex AD-1200

X-Box

Cyberhome DVD500

The X-Box does get quite noisy with DVD+R, seems to seek more or something (picture qual is not affected).

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The Philips DVDR985 (DVD+ based DVD recordable machine) is available from both Circuit City and Best Buy.

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"#2 dvd-r wins,"

Not according to Pioneer who doesn't make + drives.  I have yet to see any report anywhere that claims DVD-R is moe compatible than DVD+R.

Try yahoo or google and do a search for dvd-r vs. dvd+r.

"#4 dvd-r wins again"

Only sometimes.  Even you admit that the cheap media is less compatible than quality media.  I'm not going to use substandard discs for my data when the whole reason for putting the data on a disc is to keep it safe. .

There is, still, a happy medium still below dvd+, and a far greater choice of “high end” DVD-R media. Data integrity is no different from one format t any other. What’s important is the ability to read the disk from standard dvd drives,. That is, the particular DVD you have. While I don’t see this as being as much of an issues as with DVD players, still, DVD-r is going to be supported by more dvd drives than dvd+

"'d also like to not that if you're using high end dvd players like the Camelot you have no chance in hell with +, it will only play high quality brand name DVD-R or DVD-Authoring discs."

You spend 4 grand on a DVD player then bitch about DVD+ media costing a $1 or 2 more?  Sounds rather hypocritical to me.  I have a much more modest, though still above typical consumer level, Sony DVP-9000ES and it plays + media fine along with every other DVD player I have tried except for +RW in an original PS2, which I wouldn't use for movie watching in a million years.

DVD+ compatibility problems exists with the full range of dvd players, down to the cheapest. DVD-R has been a standard since 1996, or earlier. DVD-R is going to have greater compatibility. There really is no question about that. To refute insisting that no reports exists to support the greater compatibility of DVD-R is senseless. They do exist, as do the many more users with dvd-r experience.

"I see how I missed them, I was checking out regular retail channels."

You're full of it.  Not only have I seen some of these players at local retailers, but I looked online just now, and they are available at numerous electronics e-tailers.

"Did not occur to me to go to a site dedicated to dvd+"

I looked at both Yamaha's and Philip's site and they are right where you would expect them to be listed.  I don't know where you were looking if you couldn't find them there.

FYI, here's a link listing some compatible players for + media from HP.  Sure would be nice if Pioneer or someone would do the same for - media:

http://www.hp.com/cposupport/information_s...c/lpg41401.html

Again, neither Phillips nor yamaha are retailer’s. They are manufacturer’s. I can go to just about any Manufacturers site and find ooddles of info on products that do not exist, obsoleted, or not yet released. I checked the RETAIL CHANNELS, and did not find any + Drives.

You will have to link to those retailers if you want to convince me they exist. While I’m there, I’ll check how many DVD-R recorders they have. Bet it will be quite a few more and quite lower prices.

As for pioneer not putting up a page listing compatible players, would be quite the big page, seeing as the majority of players support dvd-r. More useful would be a site listing incompatible players, they could fit that on a single page as easily as HP fits the number of players compatible with DVD+ onto a single page.

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Not according to Pioneer who doesn't make + drives. I have yet to see any report anywhere that claims DVD-R is moe compatible than DVD+R.

i beleive http://www.vcdhelp.com has been mentioned numerous times.

You spend 4 grand on a DVD player then bitch about DVD+ media costing a $1 or 2 more? Sounds rather hypocritical to me. I have a much more modest, though still above typical consumer level, Sony DVP-9000ES and it plays + media fine along with every other DVD player I have tried except for +RW in an original PS2, which I wouldn't use for movie watching in a million years.

First of all I do not bitch about it so lets keep the slander out of this conversation. If I used DVD+R/W media for my burning needs I would not be able to afford any of my equipment. I have 4 DVR-104 and 2 DVR-105 drives in my authoring station that pretty much don't get shut off. I burn at least 40-50 DVD-R's a day, do your math.

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i haven't seen that or any other article that claims + has better compatibility than - in players that are already in homes.  http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php is a smaller sampling, but a valid, veritable metric.  811 dvd-r compatible, 417 dvd+r compatible.

has anybody taken a look at the percentages of the players that are compatible with each format? 87% support -r, 82% support +r. i dont believe that that is a great enough difference for compatibility to be a large factor in these discussions.

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I had the Pioneer DVR-A04, and exchanged it for a new Sony DRU-500A. I'm certainly not going back. My experience seems after testing with burned disks is that +R is slightly more compatible than -R, but disk quality is also a consideration. I'd say they're pretty equal.

The Sony does all DVD formats (save DVD-RAM), so it's the best bet and best buy.

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i haven't seen that or any other article that claims + has better compatibility than - in players that are already in homes.  http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php is a smaller sampling, but a valid, veritable metric.  811 dvd-r compatible, 417 dvd+r compatible.

has anybody taken a look at the percentages of the players that are compatible with each format? 87% support -r, 82% support +r. i dont believe that that is a great enough difference for compatibility to be a large factor in these discussions.

I think vchhelp.com will give you more accurate representation of the compatibility. Their listing reveals 819 DVD players with dvd-r support to 430 with dvd+ support.

dvd+ did not live up to the hype of compatibility.

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First of all I do not bitch about it so lets keep the slander out of this conversation.

Sorry champ, but anyone throwing $4000 at a DVD player instantly loses the right to complain about items priced under $5.

If I used DVD+R/W media for my burning needs I would not be able to afford any of my equipment. I have 4 DVR-104 and 2 DVR-105 drives in my authoring station that pretty much don't get shut off. I burn at least 40-50 DVD-R's a day, do your math.

What on earth are you burning that requires that many discs a day? That's certainly not a personal hobby unless you are running a mass piracy ring. Anyone burning that many discs isn't doing it for personal reasons or out of their own pocket without the intention of making income off of it. As for the huge price difference, the local CompUSA here is selling DVD-R and DVD+R discs for the exact same price when comparing like brands.

I think vchhelp.com will give you more accurate representation of the compatibility. Their listing reveals 819 DVD players with dvd-r support to 430 with dvd+ support.

Yea, we're BS'ing our way through another arguement. Even the most staunch supporter of DVD-R will tell you that it is not twice as compatible as DVD+R. Just throwing out numbers without knowing what they mean is useless to everyone. The reason that DVD-R is has so many more listed compatible players is because it has been tested with that many more players. DVD+R has not been tested incompatible with 400 more players than DVD-R it just hasn't been tested at all for those players. Most of the major brand players that anyone would be buying have been tested with both.

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Sorry champ, but anyone throwing $4000 at a DVD player instantly loses the right to complain about items priced under $5.

bullshit.

As for the huge price difference, the local CompUSA here is selling DVD-R and DVD+R discs for the exact same price when comparing like brands.

yeah, people burning massive amounts of discs tend to buy retail in jewel cases at the local compusa. after all, they're business owners that can spend 4k on a dvd player! they're rich and they just don't give a damn!

The reason that DVD-R is has so many more listed compatible players is because it has been tested with that many more players.  DVD+R has not been tested incompatible with 400 more players than DVD-R it just hasn't been tested at all for those players.  Most of the major brand players that anyone would be buying have been tested with both.

they're concrete numbers based on real testing on a web site that has no affiliation whatsoever with either standard. what have you submitted as proof?

i'm not even jumping in on the ridiculous tech battle (quote a white paper eh? well here's a white paper RIGHT BACK AT YA BUDDY) here, but the fallacies in your thinking are simply too innumerable for me to keep quiet.

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Sorry champ' date=' but anyone throwing $4000 at a DVD player instantly loses the right to complain about items priced under $5.

is that supposed to be a logical argument?

What on earth are you burning that requires that many discs a day? That's certainly not a personal hobby unless you are running a mass piracy ring.

I burn copies of Backdoor Sluts 9. None of your business.

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"they're concrete numbers based on real testing on a web site that has no affiliation whatsoever with either standard."

There is absolutely nothing wrong with VCD results, nor do I think they are inaccurate, but taking the numbers out of context makes any results bogus. The results at VCDhelp, state that the DVD-R has been tested compatible with about 400 more players, not that it is compatible with 400 more players. There is a significant difference between the two statements. DVD+R could very well be compatible with all of them, and unless you want to go out and buy all those DVD players and test them yourself, you cannot argue in the contrary.

"what have you submitted as proof?"

I got my results from PCWorld who themselves did not do the testing. They posted results done by Pioneer and some third party research firm which would be 2 seperate testings in a controlled enviroment with all formats on equal ground. Both confirmed that DVD+R had higher compatibility than DVD-R using different pools of DVD players.

"is that supposed to be a logical argument?"

Absolutely, if you pay $250,000 for an exotic sportscar that gets 10MPG no one wants to hear you bitching about the high cost of gas. You spend $4000 on a DVD player and no one wants to here you complaining about spending $.30 or less more for DVD writeable media.

"I burn copies of Backdoor Sluts 9. None of your business."

Seeing how defensive you're getting about it, you probably are.

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