sixthofmay

Yet more Maxtor and IBM drive failures...

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For all the maxtor haters out there: I have a working example of a Maxtor 8051AT 40MB HDD. Still working fine after 10+ years.

<troll>Based on my experience, Maxtor make nothing other than extremely reliable hard drives.</troll>

PS. The post is in jest, the part about having a working 40MB Maxtor is true, but the rest, well I'll leave that up to you to work out. :P

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i like every bit of my maxtor D540X 40GB in my system. using for 3.2 years. very reliable.

i has been avoiding DM+8, 9.

the DM+10 is interesting. i think they may have learned and corrected all shortfalls in earlier models platform.

its a cycle, sometimes good and sometimes bad.

waiting to see how comments DM+10 goes.

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For all the maxtor haters out there: I have a working example of a Maxtor 8051AT 40MB HDD. Still working fine after 10+ years.

202111[/snapback]

Dam I've also got a few of those 8051AT's that I'd all but forgotten about, they're laying around in box of old stuff in my garage. There's also a couple of old 50MB Quantum "Prodrives" of similar vintage in there, all working last time I tested them. I cant imagine that I'll ever use them again so don't ask me why the heck I'm still hanging on to them. :o

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For all the maxtor haters out there: I have a working example of a Maxtor 8051AT 40MB HDD. Still working fine after 10+ years.

<troll>Based on my experience, Maxtor make nothing other than extremely reliable hard drives.</troll>

PS. The post is in jest, the part about having a working 40MB Maxtor is true, but the rest, well I'll leave that up to you to work out.  :P

202111[/snapback]

I have some working Miniscribe, JTS and some Micropolis drives kickin' around in the garage hahaha . . . .

Most of those earlier Maxtor 3.5" drives say Maxtor Colorodo, your's may or may not but many of them do because that is what used to be "Miniscribe Longmount Colorodo". The 8051 was also designed by Miniscribe engineers from back when Maxtor bought out Miniscribe, which no one trusted after they were "cooking their books" by putting bricks in boxes, shipping them out and allocating them as drive orders. Miniscribe engineers went to Maxtor, which has had a huge impact on what Maxtor is today. Although the D540X is not a good drive in my opinion, every drive is not created equal and it is certainly possible to get one that may almost last forever. The D540X is really a Quantum drive. Unfortunately Quantum designs and quality started to go down hill for a while before Maxtor bought Quantum.

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For all the maxtor haters out there: I have a working example of a Maxtor 8051AT 40MB HDD. Still working fine after 10+ years.

<troll>Based on my experience, Maxtor make nothing other than extremely reliable hard drives.</troll>

PS. The post is in jest, the part about having a working 40MB Maxtor is true, but the rest, well I'll leave that up to you to work out.  :P

202111[/snapback]

I have some working Miniscribe, JTS and some Micropolis drives kickin' around in the garage hahaha . . . .

Most of those earlier Maxtor 3.5" drives say Maxtor Colorodo, your's may or may not but many of them do because that is what used to be "Miniscribe Longmount Colorodo". The 8051 was also designed by Miniscribe engineers from back when Maxtor bought out Miniscribe, which no one trusted after they were "cooking their books" by putting bricks in boxes, shipping them out and allocating them as drive orders. Miniscribe engineers went to Maxtor, which has had a huge impact on what Maxtor is today. Although the D540X is not a good drive in my opinion, every drive is not created equal and it is certainly possible to get one that may almost last forever. The D540X is really a Quantum drive. Unfortunately Quantum designs and quality started to go down hill for a while before Maxtor bought Quantum.

202189[/snapback]

I didn'k know d540x 5400rpm is a quantum drive. i only know d740x 7200rpm is very fast access time and a quantum hdd and manufacture by MKE and then labeled as maxtor.

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I didn'k know d540x 5400rpm is a quantum drive. i only know d740x 7200rpm is very fast access time and a quantum hdd and manufacture by MKE and then labeled as maxtor.

Yeah, MKE stands for "Matsushita Kotobuki Electronics", which is basically "Panasonic", who manufactured the majority of the motors in Quantum hard drives.

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I don't blame MaxtorSCSI for not replying recently. He was trying to provide some useful information and got blasted repeatedly, and usually inaccurately.

For the loudmouths complaing about Maxtor IDE drives, may I suggest you note the second half of his userid? He works with their SCSI drives. SCSI drives are often engineered to different specifications, because they are expected to be treated differently: more likely to be running 24x7 in a server in racks of multiple drives.

It's almost amusing to see people complaining about IDE drives not running 24x7, given that until recently they were expected to be running singly or in pairs in desktop machines that were switched on for 8-10 hours a day, and sitting idle for a great deal of that time. Only recently have we seen IDE hard drives that are expected to be used in servers (and you'll note that Maxtor happened to be among the first to bring out a line of hard drives with such a spec).

All that said, I happen not to use Maxtors - they are simply not as readily available to me as other brands. Since I stopped using SCSI in the late 90s, I've used a variety of brands. I started with IBM, but stopped after my first Deathstar. I used four or five WDs, but had two failures. I tried Seagates (starting with Barracuda IVs), and I've used just over 50 so far. I've had three dead drives, but one was definitely my fault (embarrassing, so let's gloss over that one), one may have been a delivery issue, but the last one was definitely not - I'd call that a 2% failure rate, and I can live with that (I had all the important data backed-up...).

I have seen a much higher rate of failure on DVD drives (10-15%). Given that optical drives are similarly mechanical devices (unlike CPUs, RAM, video cards, etc, which don't have intentionally moving parts), I'm reasonably happy with current hard drive technologies. Of course, I'd hope that, given that an optical drive failure usually doesn't lose data, unlike a hard drive. :(

I do hope MaxtorSCSI sees fit to rejoin us - I found his posts more interesting than most.

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Personally I had used LOTs of drives (usually multiple drives together) over the years. Almost every brand... :lol:

The oldest I still have is an ancient Seagate ST225 20MB (don't laugh!) ST506/ST412 MFM drive which I think its still working (moved from old PC/AT compatible to Amiga 2000 after a Quantum 240MB SCSI failed, but haven't switch on that Amiga for more than 2 years already.. too pre-occupied with PC nowadays). Second oldest drive was a Seagate 40MB IDE (still kept this one!). :blink:

Anyway.. NONE of my Quantum drives survived - 85MB Trailblazer, 127MB Prodrive, 240MB (SCSI) and 10GB Fireball lct... all dead! I also used to own the award winning (for performance-wise) Maxtor DiamondMax 20GB 7200rpm IDE (non-FDB motor one) drive, but bad experience with this drive (sold off in less than 6 months of use, weird startup problems and noisy drive). :ph34r:

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I don't blame MaxtorSCSI for not replying recently. He was trying to provide some useful information and got blasted repeatedly, and usually inaccurately.

he is one of a key active contributor. i doubt all those nitty gritty things will keep him away. probably just busy.

how do manufacturers diffential 24x7 hrs ide / sata from others? just test them longer to five days and increase reliability mtbf testing for 24x7 models.

those that make it will get 24x7 mark. that will capture more post premature failures.

frankly i still trust that all hdd should be able to withstand 24x7 in a stable pc case and good direct cooling, stacking positions and power supply, no matter how stressful the continous seeks are. is high heat the biggest contributor of 24x7 failures?

it is the quality of the components supply by different vendors used. some vendors have more failures than others. but still have to use them to meet production output quota. example, head A has more production failures than head B. however both A and B will still be supplying to meet demand.

so the person who gets head A will definitely have a higher chance of a failed hdd sooner or later running 24x7.

system intergartors OEM gets the highest grade and OEM distr for us will get mixed.

thats why only repair centres have data that will show the breakdown in components and vendors that are contributing to failures in the field after post delivery use for mnths or a year or two.

however repair centre data is too risky for anyone to reveal here.

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I don't blame MaxtorSCSI for not replying recently. He was trying to provide some useful information and got blasted repeatedly, and usually inaccurately.

202360[/snapback]

Yes I also thought the personal attacks on MaxtorSCSI were totally uncalled for. :(

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I have seen a much higher rate of failure on DVD drives (10-15%). Given that

I was up near a 100% failure rate on LG cdroms and dvd readers a bit over a year ago. They would read burned cd's, but not legit Microsoft install CD's.

Started buying Lite-ON cdwriters and readers, and NEC dvd writers, no problems now.

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I don't blame MaxtorSCSI for not replying recently. He was trying to provide some useful information and got blasted repeatedly, and usually inaccurately.

202360[/snapback]

Yes I also thought the personal attacks on MaxtorSCSI were totally uncalled for. :(

202374[/snapback]

he will be back will a long list of contribution any minute. posting and contiributing in this forum is in his blood and passion.

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I have seen a much higher rate of failure on DVD drives (10-15%). Given that

I was up near a 100% failure rate on LG cdroms and dvd readers a bit over a year ago. They would read burned cd's, but not legit Microsoft install CD's.

Started buying Lite-ON cdwriters and readers, and NEC dvd writers, no problems now.

202376[/snapback]

i also noticed some printed/pressed cds samsung can read and liteon/tdk cannot and vice versa.

so now i have 2 of these brands to be able to read all printed/ pressed cds.

i think lg, samsung,asus , msi belongs to one group. something to do with wavelength of the laser.

tdk, liteon another group. and also related to the manufacturers of these readers and writers whom the brands subcontract to.

some restricted to 40X read while liteon ,imation hits 52x easily.

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LG "Lucky Goldstar" drives suck really bad, awful . . . .

ah, the good old Seagate ST225 20MB, ok drives except for the problem where the "stepper band" had to be re-adjusted out of the factory . . . .

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Yeah. I'm still here. I've been traveling on business for the last week.

My skin is thick, and to be honest, I should have known better than to enter into a dialog on a subject that I knew would elicit strong responses (in myself as well as others). I am equally complicit in the situation that evolved here.

That being said... here's my final statement on the topic of reliability.

Reliability is a function of many different factors. Some are specific to the design, some to the manufacturing process, some to the shipping and handling process, some to the end-user environment (including things like handling during system integration, system operating environment, system mechanical environment and application workload). Most of these factors are "invisible" to the end user (they are only peripherally aware that the factors exist, and have no means of quantifying the degree). Some factors may only be visible if the end user is both very methodical in their testing/evaluation and also knowledgable about how HDDs are designed and manufactured. But no end user is capable of assessing or considering all the factors (simply because they don't have any way to evaluate them all). As a result, where factors effecting quality are concerned, nostly, to an end user an HDD is simply a black box. I tried it, it worked. I tried it, it failed. The how's and why's aren't known and so the critical contributing factors don't get included as part of their assessment. What that means is that no matter how authoritatively stated, the conclusions drawn by the vast majority of end users are predominantly anectodal.

Anectodal data can appear quite compelling, yet still lead to an incorrect conclusion. Often, it does just that.

Good or bad experiences with a given suppliers HDDs is certainly hard data. There's no arguing with a given user's experiences. But everyone needs to remember that those experiences are as likely to be the result of the way the end user used the drives as they are to be the result of the manufacturer's design or processes. The end user simply has *no* way to be sure their assessment includes the variables that matter.

To truly understand quality, detailed analyses of large populations are required. The only one that can do that is the supplier themselves.

Everyone needs to understand that a given user's input is valid only in the context of that end user's particular experience. It may or may not be pertinent to any other user's situation, and there is simply no way to evaluate that question without extensive in-depth analysis.

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your concern is only shipping to the customers in good conditionfor first few mnths, so call quality issues.  What happens after  6 mnths , one year where the real reliability issues kicks in.  this is where the repair centre comes

Maybe I should have elaborated earlier, but I neglected to do that-- my apologies. But the answer is "not true at all". We also do full in-house support where I work including several major OEM and ODM customers and have long-term support contracts with them, supporting products better than 6 years old (perhaps older)...

The failure data we see in RMA with Maxtor drives is in-line with their competition, both SCSI and ATA. I readily admit that our RMA data is going to be much more limited than a larger manufacturer that goes through 10x the drives a month that we do, so take that with reservations. :)

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Maxtor guys are not going to like this but I have to be honest. As a drive technician that has worked with hard drives since he was 12 years old I have some things that should be said about Maxtor while it's up to each individual to decide what he or she wants to believe and/or what manufacturer to trust their data with. We've been getting mostly Maxtor and IBM (3.5" drives) for the longest time. We've had the same RPM Maxtors and WD's running side by side and almost all of the Maxtors get pretty hot to touch, while not only does the HDA get very hot but often the PCB or certain chips on the PCB. I'm talking considerably hotter than the WD's. Usually when a PCB or chips on the PCB become very hot this means they are working "overtime" to compensate for either major changes to the enviornment or problems within the unit. With Quantum LCT series this happened to the extent where the Philips chip on these PCB's would oftnen burn a hole in itself. We've also been getting in quite a few practically brand new Maxtor ATA and SATA drives that have trouble reading all of a sudden. We're already seeing quite a few Maxtor 250GB hard drives that are practically new. I don't even think we've had a 250GB from any other manufacturer, only 1 200GB WDC with a very rare majorily seized spindle motor (usually see this issue with Seagate Barracuda SCSI and ATA drives). In fact we've even done a recovery for Seagate a while back and guess what the failure was? In fact it was for Seagate's spindle motor division! When we told the head engineer responsible for the spindle motor design he didn't believe us when we told him we saw the problem all the time. Sure enough he called Tulsa, Oklahoma and their repair technicians said they saw it all the time however for some reason no one took the time to notify their spindle motor engineers. Anyway, Maxtor, IBM and Fujitsu at our company are regarded as drives to avoid when customer's ask us what drives they should buy. Toshiba Notebook drives are also usually pretty bad where it makes IBM "Notebook" drives actually seem pretty good. Our technicians always seem to get a good chuckle noticing Maxtor drives are pretty much the only drives with the "Not responsible for incidental, coincidental damages or data loss" disclaimer on each hard drive . . . . . For 3.5" Drives we recommend WDC, Samsung and Seagate (in that order). Of course we are straight up with our customers and inform them that any drive can fail at any time however these are the better brands from our experience. It's your data, it's up to you, these are my observations and experiences as a professional hard drive technician . . . . :unsure:

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LG "Lucky Goldstar" drives suck really bad, awful . . . .

Have to agree with you on that one! LG CDROM drives really sucks.. They would run fine for a few months of constant use, then problems starts. Encountered quite a number of these problems personally. :huh:

As for on the job part, once I was called in to check why many of the Gateway PCs in a college could not read any CDs properly at all, reported as possible virus problem. All of them were LG CDROM drives! Problems is it will take a long time to recognize and read a CD, then after a while it gets "disconnected" and restart reading the CD again as if it was just loaded in.. This caused havoc as those AUTORUN stuff keeps popping up once in a while for no reason, and premature software installation failures. In worst cases, the drive could never read ANY CDs at all. :ph34r:

Please note that quite a number of OEMs including DELL uses LG CDROM drives also.. ;)

Edited by lexwalker

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Hi, I'm the guy who posted the analysis on techreport.com, quoted here by sixthofmay :)

I ended up keeping my faulty 75GXP, because I still haven't finished recovering all the data I care about from its bad sectors. I've gone back now to access some of old files that were affected (ZIP files) and it rather unavoidably led me to think about this again.

In case anyone reading this is interested: In the week after I had posted that analysis on techreport.com, I did an even more detailed mapping of the faulty drive — resulting in a perfect image of the bad sector stripe. Here's a link to the picture, with commentary beneath.

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Maxtor Drives,

I have an old 20gig 7200rpm maxtor from when that drived first hit and retailed for well over $300. That drive is still in service and working well, though I will admit it Did make some strange spool up noises for a while that concerned me. But The fact is that drive has seen heavy gaming use for several years now and is still chugging along nicely.

I also have a new 300gig 16meg DM10 Maxtor sata I am using as I write this. Nice drive. Thing is I have ALWAYS been anal about making sure a HDD gets good cooling! Perhaps this is my personal HDD saviour? This HDD is cooled by a 120mm front case fan, and if I were to decide to add "more hdd's" I would actually only add 1 additional 300gig Maxtor due to the dead air zone in this 120mm fan. Basically I have the HDD mounted in the upper part of the fan's airstream, so IF i were to add a 2nd drive I would mount the 2nd one in the lower part of the air stream. Now if I were to have a massive brain fart I would fearlessly add in a 3rd 300gig drive to that Nice Dead AirZone and burn all three drives up then run and complain that they obviously were a POS ect. Maxtor is most definitely not the only drives out having "heat issues"! I will state for the record I have had great luck with Maxtor drives and will continue to use them. This new 300gig maxtor DM10 is a Very Nice Drive! It is fast, and relatively quiet. Now dont get me wrong, I have built computers for friends ect using Seagates, Samsungs, WD's, Hitachi, and of course Maxtor. The ONLY drive failure I have had is 1 - 80gig Hitachi drive that was delivered DOA. I RMA'd the drive and the replacement has been in service for about a year now with no faults at all. Funny thing is the customer ran out and bought an 80gig Maxtor to put into his new system while the Hitachi was RMA'd :) So he actually has a Maxtor and a Hitachi in his comp and has had great service.

**NOTE** another cause of drive failures in more than a few NF2 mobo's was a faulty Sata bios. This bios DEFINITELY would "crush" a sata drive. Now im not sure if this was NF2 only or if it affected other chipsets as well. I happen to have used several NF2 boards to build systems for people. Of course I researched these boards and found out about the faulty Sata Bios 4227. So this too is a possibility for people to look into before unfairly bashing a particular make of HDD.

Peace

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