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Jose Gerez

Looking for a backup target appliance

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Hi everyone,

we're looking for a backup target appiance for use with Commvault. We don't need any special feature, Commvault will do everything.

Our requirements are only capacity (starting with 200 TB usable) and CIFS performance (1.25 GB/sec).

So, we need a system with good support (we're located in Spain) and as cheap as possible

Reading the reviews, it seems that QNAP & Synology have some models that fullfill our requirements.

Any recommendation? Some other manufacturer?

Regards

Edited by Jose Gerez

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At the capacity points and performance you're after, a SMB NAS isn't going to get you where you want to be. I'm thinking a dedupe appliance is your best bet. I'm guessing being budget sensitive and being in Europe your options may be somewhat limited. I'd start with Exagrid though. We can get you in touch with someone if you like.

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Hi Brian,

we don't want a dedupe appliance. We have now a DataDomain 880 which is reaching EOS. We are looking to replace it with a cheaper option as Commvault will do dedupe.

Our Commvault pre-sale guy have recommended us to use the simpler system we can buy as long it fullfill the peak transfer of 4 TB/Hr his software is capable to achieve.

But we need a high capacity system to meet our retention policy.

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At the capacity and speeds you're talking about, you are going to far surpass what those systems are supposed to handle in a normal operation. Sure you might be able to hit the capacity or the peak transfer speeds, but it isn't where the systems are intended to be used.

Is there a reason why you are against a dedupe appliance? When you start adding on your JBOD shelves to either a QNAP or Synology system and get the grade of drives you're after, price ranges will be comparable. 200TB is a ton of capacity raw, especially for backup when it doesnt need to be that large.

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Our backup is very large. Our DataDomain have 130TB of usable capacity (before dedupe, 1,5PB aprox. after dedupe). In fact, we have 2 of them, one on each of our 2 DataCenters and are replicating backup of each DC to the other DD. They are almost full.

Only maintenance of the 2 DD's are +75K €

We've invested in Commvault to have all the data managemet features in the SW and can have dumb and cheap HW easily replaceable.

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You're not going to get the IO you want from a lower grade NAS though. I'm sure you'd find Exagrid to be more price competitive.

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But in the QNAP TVS-1271-URP review (http://www.storagereview.com/qnap_tvs1271urp_12bay_nas_review) the CIFS sequential transfer speed reached 2.200.000 KB/s. That's almost 2x our performance requeriment.

Have I misunderstood the results?

That was using an all-flash configuration. If you have hundreds of thousands of dollars to burn on a SMB NAS filled with 200TB of flash, that would work.

We don't require a system able to achieve thousands of random small IO's. It will only ingest a large sequential stream from the Commvault media agents (no more than 5 of them)

Purpose-built backup targets are designed to do just that and literally nothing else. Its kind of like saying a VW bug could technically tow around a trailer, but you would be better off using a pickup truck if you are specifically always doing that particular job. More durable, handle it for sustained periods, etc.

The main thing with a enterprise backup target with dedupe is you don't need to host a billion hard drives to meet the raw capacity... instead you design it to hit the daily load and it deduces it into a smaller size after hitting the array. The QNAP or Synology was never designed for it and without dedupe will need massive JBODs just to hit your storage requirements.

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Hi Kevin,

Sorry, but your review states that a CIFS test with HDD (Seagate Enterprise NAS 6TB) reaches 2.200.000 KB/s. I've verified this before post my comment. No flash required for this spec if your review is accurated

And I know what a purpose-built backup target can do. As I said, we have a pair of DataDomain 880.

But now we want to replace them moving the intelligence from HW to SW. The data will arrive deduped to the NAS. We don't need more disks with a NAS than with a dedupe appliance

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That is sustained over 4 25GB shares... not the ingest rates or sizes you are needing.

Also we've worked with different software that does in-line dedupe (Veeam does this) and it doesn't get it as good as letting offline dedupe from an appliance run its course. If you have short backup windows it might be fine, but if you need any sort of retention you will be in a bad place.

What is your overall budget?

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We are users of Commvault and also DataDomain. Dedupe in CV (10x-12x) is not so good as on DD (14X-15X), but it's enough for us.

We've already decided to not use a dedupe appliance. Adquisition cost is very high and annual maintanance costs is also high.

We have a very limited budget (25-30K €/unit)

But as CV allow us to make some combinations with backup targets, we can buy more than a appliance to achieve our requeriments. We prefer a standalone system (less power, network ports, refrigeration, etc) but are not closed to other options

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I don't advise it, but if budget is the only concern, then get a Synology RackStation with a couple JBODs and jam in 8TB HDDs. At $500/each that will work through your budget pretty quick, but you should be able to keep the Synology cost under 10k.

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If you're willing to gamble that much on Synology or QNAP, any idea if you can at least get a demo from whatever vendor* you're buying from before you commit to forking over your money, just to make sure they will meet your performance needs?

* = since you explicitly mention support in your first post... or are you counting on first-party support from Synology or Qnap? o_0 Heck maybe get some pre-sales support from them if you're going to go this route?

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As someone who has gone through this and helped size this for other customers, do not take this lightly. Commvault details out VERY well what is needed to make their own dedupe work. What I've found is that where you can replace a DataDomain or Exagrid, or <insert dedupe appliance here>

http://documentation.commvault.com/commvault/v11/article?p=system_requirements/commcell_sizing/c_commcell_sizing.htm

You end up multiplying your existing CVLT servers by anywhere from 3-5x, you have to up the RAM in all of them to 24GB or more, you need SSD/flash in most all the servers. Because of a Microsoft EA I had, the Commvault included OEM license of SQL screwed me, and forced me to buy another $150k in SQL licensing as a true-up.... So now there are more server, more 10GbE and FC ports used, more Windows CAL's, more storage administration, more SQL core licenses, more patching, etc.... OpEx went through the roof, over an overpriced dedupe appliance....

If you want a solid NAS for CVLT, Isilon works great, but will cost you. Other wise, a number of NexSAN units can work well too.

Again, follow CVLT's sizing guide to a T. They have calculators to tell you exactly how many MediaAgents you'll need and tell you what server specs you need.

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