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sephroth777

You guys now have me all confused!!! HA HA...

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Ok try this how is that Tekram DC-390U3W scsi controller?

See the new ave. on the horizon is the SCSI U320 standard and Seagate already has the drives on their website but not for purchase yet....is it wise for one to wait until they are released and go U320 or just settle for U160 and not wait......

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$300 for a fast SCSI drive is being a poor consumer which non of us can help someone with.

Fujistu MAN $126

Pricewatch also list a number of retailers with the X15 starting at $205

I was refering only to the X15-36LP...

You have to add the cost of a good SCSI card in there. The Adaptec 19160 is about a hundred bucks, bringing the real total to $300. (or $226 for the MAN)

Jason

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sephroth,

I've never used a tekram HBA before but have friends who swear by them.

The u160 question is a good one. SCSI cards tend to have a very long useable life. They generally move from computer to computer during upgrades becouse even if they aren't the fastest thing out there anymore they still have functionality. With current availability I have stayed with u160. If COMPARABLY PRICED u320 units were around when I next purchased I'd buy one.

The interesting thing about this is that unless you buy a Motherboard with at least one 64bit PCI bus you'll be limited to 133MB/sec (theoretical) throughput for all of your PCI devices including your SCSI card. So even a single channel U160 SCSI card will provide more throughput than your system will be able to use.

Depending on your future uprgade plans the U160 will do quite well. Paying extra money for something that you won't be able to use for 2 or more upgrades is risky in this field.

One thing to look into is that I've heard some manufacturers are claiming some of thier current u160 units will be upgradable (firmware) to u320. Though I haven't personaly seen one. If anyone knows this for sure I'd be interested to know.

Unless you have plans to buy a motherboard in the near future with a 64bit PCI bus u160 will outperform the rest of your system.

I purchased a dual channel u160 64bit 66Mhz card when I bought becouse it was "only" $150 and I do intend to need it in my next upgrade plus it's completely backward compatable.

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...and doesn't really justify the cost for most people.

I disagree, yet wouldn't be so presumptuous as to speak for "most people".

We can only speak for ourselves. For me, it was WELL WORTH the investment. Like everyone else, Seph will have to make that decision FOR HIMSELF.

Personally, I know of precious few ppl who have 'gone SCSI' and regretted it. I know of far more (like myself) who regretted not having upgraded sooner. For me, the real-life performance improvement was DRAMATIC. For me .. upgrading from a 7200rpm IDE drive.

I also feel that to suggest you need "piles of cash" to go SCSI is a misnomer.

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I disagree, yet wouldn't be so presumptuous as to speak for "most people".

Most people buy $599 computers from CompUSA or Dell and don't even ask how big the drive is, much less how fast it is...

My flight school recently bought another computer for the office, a cheap HP box from CompUSA (one of those $599 things). It runs e-mail, Word, QuickBooks, and IE, and that is about it...

It does not matter how fast or how big the drive is, only that it works and is cheap...

Most computers sold fit into that catagory, people want a decent machine for a cheap price that is faster than the one they are replacing.

People buying SCSI drives for desktop systems do so because they want to, there is zero need for it consumer desktops...

Almost everyone here has systems that are way overkill for 95% of computer users out there, myself included...

When you realize that, you'll understand why I can say SCSI is overkill and not needed for "most people", because it isn't...

Personally, I know of precious few ppl who have 'gone SCSI' and regretted it.

You're talking only about technophilies... Your mom would neither notice, nor care... She probably would be more bothered by the extra noise than notice the speed...

I also feel that to suggest you need "piles of cash" to go SCSI is a misnomer.

There are so many more imporant things to spend $300 on, you need piles of cash before it makes any sense to waste it here...

If nothing else, use the $300 to start an early college fund for your kids, or stick in an rainy day fund...

If you don't neither either of those, then by all means buy it, but if you don't have both of those, you need them a lot more than you need a SCSI drive...

Jason

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jehh off base question...I am in flight school also actually persuing a 4year degree in Air Traffic Management/Aeronautical Science

I'm getting my commerical rotorwing (helicopter) pilot certificate... After being in the IT business for 10 years, my heart was not in it anymore after 9/11. Money was no longer enough to keep me there (it paid well enough, but blah)...

My goal is to fly for EMS, I want to help people, save lives, without actually having to stick needles in them. :P

I'm about half way through now, I'm soloing and should have my private this month. I'll have my commerical by September and instruct for a year and a half. Then go off to do off-shore work or another turbine job for another two years to build the time required to do EMS flying... (most want 2,500 to 3,000 hours which takes 4 to 5 years to get)

If you want to make a carrer out of the business, having a degree can help. If you just want to fly, it really does nothing for you. Depends on what side of the business you want to be in. Myself, I ran a business, don't want to do it again, I just want to fly. :P

Jason

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Most people buy $599 computers

I don't know a single person who owns a $599 computer .. and I know a *sh!tload* of ppl with computers.

You're talking only about technophilies

Call them whatever you want, but I'm talking about ppl who, for whatever reason, want a better-performing disk storage subsystem. Coincidentally, it seems like these are precisely the people who come to the SR forums and post questions. Why confuse the issue by basing your response on what Mr. $599 needs in a PC? Mr $599 does not come to the SR forums. The ppl who post questions here couldn't care less about the needs of Mr. $599.

Your mom would neither notice, nor care

Moot point. We're not talking about what my mom wants or needs in a PC. You response would be more helpful if it took into consideration the needs of the poster, not my mom or Mr. $599. Just because neither of them need/want SCSI, doesn't mean the poster wouldn't benefit from it, nor that he wouldn't find it a worthwhile investment.

There are so many more imporant things to spend $300

In your OPINION. Everyone is different. Regardless, the person who started this post didn't ask about the best way to spend $300.

Either way, my point was that needing "piles of cash" to go SCSI is a misnomer. Why not just leave it at "$300" and let the Seph make up his own mind? To characterize the cost of going SCSI as requiring "piles of cash" seems that you are trying to influence his decision, rather than letting him make up his own mind. He has a brain. Why not let him use it to characterize the cost on his own? I doubt he needs our help in that respect. Maybe, to him, $300 is a DROP IN THE BUCKET. Adding colorful subjective qualifyers such as "piles of cash" just seems to confuse the issue.

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yeah as of myself I will be heading for FAA tech academy next summer for training re: Miami Tracon

quick question anyone know if the Tekram Cards such as the DC-390U3W or U3D have to offer all I know one is a single channel U160 (U3W) and the other a dual U160. I was planning to getting a SCSI HD and SCSI CDrom and possibly a SCSI CDRW (but the IDE's CDRW are WAY faster) anyone have an opinion regarding IDE CDRW vs. SCSI ones?

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Tekram's cards use the LSI chipset, which in some tests is slightly quicker than Adaptec's similar specced one. Other than that there's not a great deal of difference.

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300 is not a drop in the bucket for me but I do see it as an investment potentially long term that is why I am leaning towards SCSI....so upon all this what would you suggest for a good way to keep the drive cool as regarding 80mm case fans?

I currently have all antec (yuck) 1 exhaust/2 intake one on front bezel and the other blowing on the PCI/AGP slots....

I have heard of Panaflo's and Sunon just not sure which to go with

Cheers

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I don't know a single person who owns a $599 computer .. and I know a *sh!tload* of ppl with computers.

You're the exception, but that's ok...

Almost everyone I know owns a shitbox... My Mom has one of those $399 crap eMachines computers, and while it is bare and slow, it does work fine...

Most people I know actually own Dell systems, usually between $599 and $799 in price...

Call them whatever you want, but I'm talking about ppl who, for whatever reason, want a better-performing disk storage subsystem.

Yes, they are called technophiles... That is ok, just that they are the exception...

Most people don't even know they have a choice, much less what those choices are.

Coincidentally, it seems like these are precisely the people who come to the SR forums and post questions. Why confuse the issue by basing your response on what Mr. $599 needs in a PC? Mr $599 does not come to the SR forums. The ppl who post questions here couldn't care less about the needs of Mr. $599.

That is correct actually, my response is not the most useful for visitors to SR. :P

Moot point. We're not talking about what my mom wants or needs in a PC. You response would be more helpful if it took into consideration the needs of the poster, not my mom or Mr. $599.

The needs? The needs of the poster are any good drive made in the last two years... Everything else is a want...

You also don't need it, it is a luxury...

Too many people these days confuse needs with luxuries...

Anything that is not required to do the job is a luxury. Doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it, but it does mean the money should come from your luxury budget.

Just because neither of them need/want SCSI, doesn't mean the poster wouldn't benefit from it, nor that he wouldn't find it a worthwhile investment.

Hard drives are not investments, they are expenses. Investments go up in value, expenses go down.

In your OPINION. Everyone is different. Regardless, the person who started this post didn't ask about the best way to spend $300.

That is true, and that is one reason why so many people are burried in debt and have no savings...

This is a personal beef with me, so perhaps my view is skewed a bit...

People bitch and complain that they have no money, that they are poor. They are poor because they make choices that cause them to be poor, yet they do not want to accept responsibility for that.

I can afford a dozen SCSI drives, yet I don't buy them. I don't even buy one... Why? Because I would rather have money than a faster hard drive. My point is that if you already have lots of money, then sure... treat yourself... But you're an idiot to spend money on something like that if you do not have savings reserves...

This is why I don't believe in welfare for the most part, it just bails out people who make poor budget choices...

Maybe, to him, $300 is a DROP IN THE BUCKET.

If $300 is a lot of money to you, you make poor budget choices. $300 should not be a serious amount of money to anyone in the US or Western Europe, it just isn't that much money in the grand scheme of things.

That being said, $300 here, $300 there, it all adds up very quickly...

If this is the only $300 luxury you spend your money on, not a big deal. If you do that sort of thing with all the stuff in your life, you're going to be hard pressed to EVER make enough money...

Jason

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300 is not a drop in the bucket for me but I do see it as an investment potentially long term that is why I am leaning towards SCSI....

Hard drives are not investments... Land is an investment, stocks are investments, mutual funds are investments, a business is an investment...

Cars, computers, TVs, etc. are not investments... They are money sink holes...

If you want the speed and can afford it, by all means... Just understand that in 3 years, that SCSI drive will still not be all that much faster than a modern IDE drive, both will be 3 years old and both will be worth very little...

Save $200 by buying an 80GB drive and that extra space may come in handy in the long run, and stick the $200 some place more useful than a hard drive.

If you have kids today and you stick that $200 into a college fund for them (say in the S&P 500), when they turn 18 and go to college, that $200 will have turned into $1,569.42

Now that isn't enough to send kids to college, but if you take that same approach to various things in life, you can quickly save enough.

If people would just buy used cars when they are young instead of new and save the extra money, they would be set for life...

If you're 20 years old and want to retire at 65, stick $10,000 into the S&P 500. When you're 65, you'll have about $1.7 million without having to do a thing or put in another dime... That more people don't do this amazes me...

If you stick just $50 a week into that same account, you get $5.3 million at 65.

If you cannot afford the $10,000 now, just putting in $50 a week with nothing up front gets you $3.7 million.

Take that $200 and make it your first month's controbution to your retirement... You'll have millions and can afford to buy the really fun toys that will REALLY be noticable...

Another thing, put the money into a ROTH IRA for two reasons... First, you cannot spend it until you retire, and second it grows tax free and you take it out tax free...

Jason

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NOTE: Jason's previous post contains forward looking statements based on past market performance. All investors should make decisions based on thier own research.

Thank you.

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NOTE: Jason's  previous post contains forward looking statements based on past market performance. All investors should make decisions based on thier own research. 

Thank you.

Heheheh... That was funny, good sense of humor there...

It is true too, there are no guraentees the market will return 11.5% a year on average over the long haul. That being said, it has done so for the past 108 years, and should continue to do so short of something really horrible happening... (nuclear war, martians invading, Al Gore being elected President in 2004, etc...)

Jason

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Now those I recommend running in RAID 0. I prefer to have many quiet fans moving the same amount of air as few large ones. This also provides fault tolerance.

BTW I'm not kidding.

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If you want the best and can afford it, buy a X15-36LP for OS and apps and a 800JB for other software. That way you have the best performance combination, yet still have plenty of capacity. If you are on a more tight budget, buy a WD 1200JB. I think you will be satisfied with both. Unfortunately I have no experience of the X15, so I cannot tell you how much faster it is compared to a 800JB, but I believe it should be noticeable. It is up to you, if the performance increase is worth the extra money.

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---------------------------------------------------------------------

I noticed that Thermaltake (www.thermaltake.com) has some 'smart' case fans that change temps with case temperatures and they offer 3 pin connectors so you can monitor RPM's

http://www.thermaltake.com/products/dcfan/a1214.htm

ThermalTake also offers a 'fan accesory' that i find very convenient. It is a switch that lets you adjust your fan(s) to 3 different speeds. Thermaltake's switch apparently uses a duty cycle to adjust fan speeds (a cheaper method I've seen adjusts voltages to 5,7, and 12 volts) I personally had problems with the latter method of voltage adjustment and my PSU died (enlight 250W)

With the Thermaltake switch i can adjust my 12v CPU fan that normally runs at 4800RPM's to the following speeds: 4800, 3800, and 2800RPM's.

The switch is available here: http://www.thermaltake.com/products/access...ories/a1268.htm

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Antec makes a nice series of PSU's that they call 'True Power' also with a 'smart fan' and RPM monitoring via 3pin connector (1 wire) to motherboard

http://www.antec-inc.com/p_truehome.html

And here are Antec's smart fans

http://www.antec-inc.com/f_smartfan.html

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lemme tell you why i like smart fans and fan speed adjustment ;)

It is nice for me because my computer doubles as a 24/7 private file server and mail server for my domain and i have to sleep with the noise that the beast generates... @ idle, my case and CPU temps are 84F and 86F respectively(athlonXP 1800+)... So, I dont need heavy cooling and I turn down the fans at night if the computer gets irritating.

Personally i have the Antec True power 300W PSU (fan usually @ 1900-2200 rpm), a generic CPU fan(4800rpm) and an 80mm panflow Case fan (doesn't have monitoring but only runs at 12v .16amp i would estimate it to be 2500rpm's)

@ idle:

Temp:

CPU: 86F

Case:84F

Fans:

PSU: 1900rpm

CPU: 4800-2800rpm

@play:

Temp:

CPU: ~112F

Case: ~95F

Fans:

PSU: 2200rpm

CPU: 4800rpm

This is an AthlonXP 1800+ system, KT266a mobo(soyo dragon plus), 3 IBM Deathstars(2x 75gxp 1x 120gxp), 2 optical drives, standard flat IDE cables, Geforce 3 Ti200, Matrox Millenium PCI, TurtleBeach SantaCruz sound, Netgear NIC, ATI TVtuner

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after re-reading my post i just wanted to make sure I was clear when i described Thermaltakes fan switch

1) it mounts in a PCI slot on the case (doesnt touch mobo)... and is easily accessible from the outside of the computer.

2) it uses the "good" method of adjusting duty cycle (only supplies power part of the time)

3) it does not use the "bad" method of adjusting voltage.

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hehe....*looks at my sig.*...HEY...I HAVE A SHITBOX...and those that have read the horror stories I've come across cuz of it....I think that a lot of people would agree...or at least I most certainly hope so. (P.S....I've even tried to FORCE Maya to run on it...and I crammed Win2K on it...)...lol...anyways....

one point that I would STRONGLY agree with..it DEFINITELY depends on what you're doing with your system. Like my roommate and I used to make our systems sweat a little. My roommate had a P3-800, with a WD 20.5GB (I THINK that it might be a WD200AB) drive as the main drive, and I have my SCSI drive as my main drive. Hehe.....try....browsing internet when you're doing a 15 hour render.....LOL....NOT happening. Well...even if it DOES happen....it'll be a while. Go out for a coffee or movie or something...and then...MAYBE....you'd be online.

SCSI...however...hehe.....might take a little while...but..at least you'd get there.

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see I was on the verge going SCSI....but now with the new Ultra 320's hitting fall...maybe I should settle with the WD1200Jb and add SCSI in the Fall so I have the new standard for years to come.....thoughts??

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