HamaZ

USB 1.0 in practice?

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Hi to every reader.

All of you know that there are two versions of USB, 1.1 and 2.0.

That is nice, but historically there had to be some USB 1.0 before version 1.1. Well, I have a Pentium Pro machine (IBM PC Server 315), and it has one, single USB 1.0 port.

Now I know that USB 1.1 and 2.0 are completely compatible (except for performance penalty in certain combinations), but I am not sure is this USB 1.0 compatible with 1.1 and 2.0.

I want to use that USB port on that machine, but I am afraid to connect any device to it. That is why I made this post. Are USB 1.0 and 1.1 electrically (and in all other means) compatible? I don't want to damage anything.

The devices I intend to connect (one at a time):

USB ZIP 250 (1.1)

USB Mouse (probably 2.0)

USB Photographic Device (popularly called "camera") (2.0)

USB Gamepad (propably 2.0)

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I've used USB 2.0 devices on socket 7 430TX and 430VX chipsets without issue. AFAIK, those were some of Intel's earliest attempts at integrated USB. Haven't tried the later 440FX.

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Both PIIX3 and PIIX4 southbridges are USB 1.0. The former is buggy/flawed and may not be supported by Win 2K/XP.

There are no electrical differences between versions.

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Hi to every reader.

All of you know that there are two versions of USB, 1.1 and 2.0.

That is nice, but historically there had to be some USB 1.0 before version 1.1. Well, I have a Pentium Pro machine (IBM PC Server 315), and it has one, single USB 1.0 port.

Now I know that USB 1.1 and 2.0 are completely compatible (except for performance penalty in certain combinations), but I am not sure is this USB 1.0 compatible with 1.1 and 2.0.

I want to use that USB port on that machine, but I am afraid to connect any device to it. That is why I made this post. Are USB 1.0 and 1.1 electrically (and in all other means) compatible? I don't want to damage anything.

The devices I intend to connect (one at a time):

USB ZIP 250 (1.1)

USB Mouse (probably 2.0)

USB Photographic Device (popularly called "camera") (2.0)

USB Gamepad (propably 2.0)

214730[/snapback]

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Hi to every reader.

All of you know that there are two versions of USB, 1.1 and 2.0.

That is nice, but historically there had to be some USB 1.0 before version 1.1. Well, I have a Pentium Pro machine (IBM PC Server 315), and it has one, single USB 1.0 port.

Now I know that USB 1.1 and 2.0 are completely compatible (except for performance penalty in certain combinations), but I am not sure is this USB 1.0 compatible with 1.1 and 2.0.

I want to use that USB port on that machine, but I am afraid to connect any device to it. That is why I made this post. Are USB 1.0 and 1.1 electrically (and in all other means) compatible? I don't want to damage anything.

The devices I intend to connect (one at a time):

USB ZIP 250 (1.1)

USB Mouse (probably 2.0)

USB Photographic Device (popularly called "camera") (2.0)

USB Gamepad (propably 2.0)

214730[/snapback]

now what I meant to post...

IIRC 1.0 and 1.1 are electrically equivalent. The difference was in the software spec with the intro of class and interface 'drivers' into the spec. HTH

214752[/snapback]

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Your USB 1.0 ports won't kill your USB hardware .... in any case. Lots of old USB implementations were not 100% baked, but they won't damage your hardware.

So try it out, if it doesn't work, buy a NEC PCI USB2 card and use that, for $30 US.

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Thank you all for clearing the doubts.

Now, when that is over, does anybody know ANY freakin way to have USB support on Windows NT4?

I have WinNT4 and Win95OSR2 on that machine. ORS2 can support USB with some patches, I will do that soon.

But what about NT? Any any way??

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I have patched one NT to support USB. And I installed storage drivers too to support external HDDs. First it didn't seem to work... but later I found out the reason: I forgot to format the external drive to NTFS. NT didn't support FAT32. Of course, that could be patched also.

I don't have any links to offer right now (except that you can find FAT32 to WinNT on Sysinternals' home page).

Edited by whiic

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It would be really helpfull if you could give me some additional information about that USB patch, maybe links, names etc.

The problem is that I heard/red on several places that there is definitely no way for NT4 to support USB.

So I suppose that your "patch" is probably some 3rd party utility/driver, similiar to FAT32 driver from SysInternals (I have it, but the free/readonly version only :(

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http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/Fat32.html

Isn't FAT32 to NT4 a full access patch? (I have not yet tried it, but it doesn't say "read-only" on their web site.)

NTFS for Win98 is read-only.

But, back to the subject... The patch I used was something made by some third party. Then I installed the drives that came with my USB-enclosure and then I tried to format a drive inside that enclosure to NTFS and FAT(16) and ... success. I could save files and transfer them to my other computers without bigger problems. That sounds like a 99% functional USB support to me. I don't know about printers, mouses, digicams, etc., as I haven't tested them.

BUT: the computer I patched is in my parents' house and I study in a different city. I cannot help you now because I do not remember where I downloaded the patch, but maybe I'll find a clue when I get access to that computer.

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I don't expect to play them. I play them. Well, actually my sister plays them. I played them the first month when I set up the machine (about a year ago) and since then it isn't on the edge of my mind....no time for that.

The Pentium Pro is paired with 12MB Voodoo2 so I can play every game I can imagine which is older than September 11. I have played Quake3, NFS4, Colin McRae Rally 2, etc. without problem.

But my sister plays SNES and GBA games trough emulators, so a gamepad can be really helpfull there. I know, I should get a gameport gamepad, but until I find one, I wanted to try this USB thing.

That's an answer.

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Not to nitpick, but the FX chipset predates the TX and VX.

-Chris

I've used USB 2.0 devices on socket 7 430TX and 430VX chipsets without issue.  AFAIK, those were some of Intel's earliest attempts at integrated USB.  Haven't tried the later 440FX.

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But, back to the subject... The patch I used was something made by some third party. Then I installed the drives that came with my USB-enclosure and then I tried to format a drive inside that enclosure to NTFS and FAT(16) and ... success. I could save files and transfer them to my other computers without bigger problems. That sounds like a 99% functional USB support to me. I don't know about printers, mouses, digicams, etc., as I haven't tested them.

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In all likelihood, you convinced NT that the external USB drive was a SCSI drive, similar to the way you can get USB drives to work in DOS by using USB ASPI drivers. BUT, I believe this is a USB 1.1+ thing.

You can also get a mouse or keyboard to work by enabling 'Legacy USB Support' in your mobo's BIOS. This might also be missing on a USB 1.0 motherboard.

There is ZERO way you're going to get a USB printer or digicam to work in NT. Those require announcing themselves to the OS as USB devices, requiring OS-specific drivers for that USB device. No USB printer will have NT 4.0 drivers, same for digicams. The aforementioned examples involve tricking the OS into thinking they're not USB.

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Not to nitpick, but the FX chipset predates the TX and VX.

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440FX was released in mid-1996, while the 430VX and 430HX were released at the beginning of 1996. Perhaps you are thinking of the 430FX from 1995? Regardless, both 430VX (and 430HX) and 440FX use PIIX3 so USB functionality should be the same.

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Yep, that's what i was thinking of. Guess i read that a bit too quickly :-)

-Chris

440FX was released in mid-1996, while the 430VX and 430HX were released at the beginning of 1996.  Perhaps you are thinking of the 430FX from 1995?  Regardless, both 430VX (and 430HX) and 440FX use PIIX3 so USB functionality should be the same.

214866[/snapback]

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This is supposed to be the Dell "USB-NT Utility":

http://ftp1.us.dell.com/utility/R62200.EXE

What exactly it does and supports, dunno. Certainly worth a try. I do think that a gamepad would need some form of support from the OS.

As far as USB support on this PPro is concerned, whether it works at all depends on the revision of the PIIX3 southbridge - the older one won't work, the newer one (SU093) does, at least for low-speed mode (1.5 Mb/s). One problem is that old BIOSes typically do not assign an IRQ to USB, which is required for Win2k upwards at least.

To get the best performance out of such a system, it is to be made sure that:

* write combining is used for the graphics card's memory ranges (it would be the graphics driver's job to set this up in NT; Matrox drivers have an option for this, for example)

* busmaster DMA transfers are used for storage (not PIO) - NT4 tends to be a bit stubborn in case of the PIIX3 and requires a DmaDetectionLevel=0x2 setting, at least on the HX boards I've tried

Additionally, a look at the memory timing registers (e.g. via WPCREDIT) can't hurt, especially if the BIOS setup options are very limited in this regard.

Under DOS, I found that enabling caching (WT) for the memory area with the SCSI option ROM increases throughput noticeably (for drives on the SCSI HA, that is) - not surprisingly, a cached BIOS is faster after all.

I currently have a floating setup with a Gigabyte GA-686KDX board (i440FX based), two not perfectly matched 233 MHz PIIs (both are C1 step, but only one has L2 ECC) with big heatsinks (blown at by a spare 80 mm fan), an interesting mix of EDO and FPM SIMMs, a Millennium II 4 MiB, an old 8 gig IDE Seagate and a 250W Fortron PSU. That board is an interesting mix of older and newer features - ATX with double-decker port setup, 5 PCI slots (+3 ISA, one shared) and dual Slot 1 meets 72-pin SIMMs (up to 6) and CPU support for Klamath core only. A brand-new floppy data cable did not fit the board, apparently the notch position has moved to the other side in the past. I've tried my spare 53C895 base U2W controller, this seems to work fine.

Being restricted to DOS (with some utilities like Norton Commander, fortunately - without a floppy drive, a null-modem cable and terminal program are highly helful) until I can find a decent ATX case, a DIY solution for CPU cooling, possibly a floppy drive and have decided which harddrive to use, I've had some fun with chipset register tweaks, benchmarking (by tweaking mem throughput, I managed 25% more throughput in STREAM for DOS - though even this looks fairly sad against an LX with SDRAM, not to mention a BX), and this even was an opportunity to try out some BIOS modding. You know, the Chipset Features Setup in this fairly standard (though old) Award 4.51PG BIOS was mostly containing emptiness, not even an option to turn on Delayed Transactions to be found. There wasn't any microcode for my relatively late 6-3-4 (C1 stepping) Klamaths either. I fixed that with AwardMod and modbin, the gory details are here:

http://forums.2cpu.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67962

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This is supposed to be the Dell "USB-NT Utility":

http://ftp1.us.dell.com/utility/R62200.EXE

What exactly it does and supports, dunno. Certainly worth a try. I do think that a gamepad would need some form of support from the OS.

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Alrighty. I have NT 4 on my VirtualPC, so I tried this utility out.

It is by Inside Out Networks, and adds limited USB 1.1 support to NT 4.0 SP3 or higher. (It specifically says USB 1.1, so I don't know if it would work with 1.0.)

It gives the options to add:

USB Stack

3Com - Vista Imaging USB Camera Drivers

USB HID Drivers

Edgeport Drivers

USB Mass Storage Driver

USB Stack is the main USB support, I'm guessing. USB HID is keyboard/mouse (although I think game pads also fall under HID, but I'm not certain.) USB Mass Storage is hard drives and flash drives. The 3Com one must refer to 3Com brand USB webcams. I have no idea what the Edgeport one means.

AHA! Their website says that their NT USB Stack allows WDM USB device drivers to work in NT!

After installing it, I turned on USB support in Virtual PC (I had it off since NT didn't support USB before.) It added a USB applet to the system tray that brings up a USB device viewer. I then passed through my USB memory card reader (Sandisk Imagemate 12-in-1 to be precise,) and put in a Memory Stick. Sadly, nothing happened. The USB device viewer doesn't show anything. I then plugged in my iPod shuffle. No go. A USB webcam, nada. A USB hard drive (not flash-based,) nothing.

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I checked the USB-utility I have installed on my NT and it is

UsbTray version 2.0.0 ©2002 Inside Out Networks.

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Could the reason for the usucsessfull detection of USB devices be the fact that you are running that OS on a Virtual PC?

I will try this driver soon on this Pentium Pro machine when I get time for that.

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