halcyon

WD3200JB at Tom's

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I know it's not upto SR testing methodology standards, but consider it an appetizer:

http://www20.tomshardware.com/storage/20050217/index.html

Looks interesting, esp. thermal/noisewise if the subjective reports the reviewer made are trustworthy. I refrain from drawing conclusions about it's read/write performance though.

I'm looking to buy 2 x 300GB drives and the Maxtor problems are putting me off the DM10 model (Hitachi I still won't touch and Seagate 7200.8 is slow/noisy/semi-hot).

Anybody already have WD 3200JB and could comment on performance, acoustics and temperatures?

Edited by halcyon

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Dug up some WD's own marketing figures:

- 3 platters at c. 106.7 GB / each*

- energy consumption down from 12.8W in read/write (WD2500JB) to 9.5W (WD3200JB)*

- acoustics down from 34d/36dBA (idle/seek, WD2500JB) to 28/33dBA (idle/seek, WD3200JB)*

* figures are from Maxtor's own marketing literature. Take them for what you will. Still, they appear to be indicating at least a slight reduction in temps/noise.

I'm eagerly waiting for the StorageReview benchmarks on this puppy.

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If it boasts the same sterling reliability that the WD2000JBs I've seen in service have then it should make couriers all around the world happy, and guarantee the jobs of people working in WD call centres for a while longer :-D

Dave

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@halcyon

What DM10 problems? I admit I have only had my 300gig DM10 for about a month now but so far it has given no problems. It has good noise levels, and good performance so far. So I am curious what problems you are referring to.

Thanks

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What DM10 problems?

Mainly the ones reported here: odd seek time variances. Also some people with rapidly failing drives and some notes on heat issues.

I'd love to get Maxline III, but where I live the next time they'll be in stock is in April (and I'm not all too convinced it really is any better reliabilitywise than DM10).

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If it boasts the same sterling reliability that the WD2000JBs I've seen in service have then it should make couriers all around the world happy, and guarantee  the jobs of people working in WD call centres for a while longer :-D

Dave

197866[/snapback]

am I picking up some sarcasm?!

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Must I be the one to order this drive so that some board on the entire web can have something to say about it?

The Tom's Hardware review did little in the way of objective tests, and the subjective impressions are really not worth that much to me.

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Halcyon, I would not make judgements regarding a disk drive's reliability from the forum posts of a couple random individuals who clearly have a bone to pick. I've read all that recent crap, and you know what I think about it?

Let's just say I just ordered two, 16MB cache, 300GB DM10s and a third, 16MB cache 200GB DM10. And I'm not worried one bit.

Over the years I've seen threads decrying the reliability of every disk drive under the sun on this forum. As soon as the thread starts fools just erupt out of the wood work, and before you know it you have three pages of drivel that, to any non-critical individual, would appear to guarantee that every disk coming out of a manufacturer's factory was absolutely preordained by God to fail right after the 30 day return period expired. Anyone with sense ignores those ramblings. I don't think you should let them influence any of your purchasing decisions.

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Gilbo, very sane advice.

However, it is my data that I must protect.

The warranty claim percentages of Maxtor are not convincing imho, so I'm a little worried.

Then again, no other manufacturer really has anything superior to offer (performance or proven reliability). It really is a crapshoot.

I'll wait for WD3200JB experiences/reviews to surface. I'll have to wait for Maxline III to get into stock at any rate :)

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Gilbo, very sane advice.

However, it is my data that I must protect.

The warranty claim percentages of Maxtor are not convincing imho, so I'm a little worried.

Then again, no other manufacturer really has anything superior to offer (performance or proven reliability). It really is a crapshoot.

I'll wait for WD3200JB experiences/reviews to surface. I'll have to wait for Maxline III to get into stock at any rate :)

198212[/snapback]

Only way to protect your data is to do proper backups. Nothing else will come close.

Any drive you buy, from any manufacturer, is more likely to die from some random factor that you cannot predict beforehand, rather then from the actual design of the drive itself. Unless you are buying 100's of drives, your experiences will have nothing to do with the design reliability.

Only a few drives models end up with systematic design or implementation problems, eg the IBM 75GXP.

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Both Gilbo and rugger have make excellent points. I've owned and built PCs for, well looking at my sig, 24 years, and you'll notice that I have two DM10s in my main system. I've commented on them in other threads, so I won't duplicate, but I'm certainly happy. And I certainly keep them backed up on two external drives as well...

Future Shock

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I have a 300GB DM10 in my system too and I'm happy with it. Disk drives are really cheap these days. I can't imagine building a system with just one drive. My recommendation: buy two. Partition the first as 10-20GB for O/S and Apps, the rest for backup. Use the second drive for data. Write a script that backs up the data drive to the backup partition daily. This setup has good performance (O/S and data on separate spindles), good safety (data and backup on separate drives), is easy to implement, and isn't very expensive (probably less than a good video card). You can't expect any drive to last forever, so always have at least 2 drives and automate the backup process.

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I completely agree with backups.

Regardless, eliminating more likely duds are puchase stage (if data is available) is not only wise, it's essential imho.

Also, backing up 2 x 300 GB on a continuous basis using cheap gear/media is not an easy feat to pull off.

Otherwise I completely agree about the need to backup. I do that to critical data all the time, even on disks that are in their assumed "safe" bathtub period of life cycle.

regards,

halcyon

PS Back onto topic: Anybody have an idea why many retailers (may be not in your city, but in many places) have trouble keeping/getting Maxline III in stock? DM10 seems to be easily available, but ML III seems to be out of stock in many places around Europe?

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As has been discussed elsewhere on the board, I think that the REAL difference between the DM10 and the MLIII is the warranty terms, and the fact that Maxtor intentionally limits the ratio of ML III drives to DM10 drives they sell. This allows them more financial reserves in the event of a cyclical downturn in the drive business, as they will not have so much debt tied up in anticipated warranty costs.

Given that, it makes sense that the ML III will be available primarily to OEM solution producers, and the retail/enthusiast channels will have nearly all DM10s. I personally wanted ML IIIs, but bought 2 DM10s, as it isn't all that often that a drive is top of the line in more than 3 years anyway.. In the old world of tower cases, that didn't matter, you could ALWAYS find a place for old drives. But in today's SFF world, 1-2 drives is the max for most cases, so cluttering up your systems with old drives is less than useful...

Future Shock

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Thanks. I know the discussion.

I'm basing my decision on this and the longer warranty (where I live):

Here's the straight dope, from a Maxtor firmware engineer I know:

- The DM10 and Maxline III are manufactured on the same process

- The Maxline III undergoes a more rigorous QA process

Basically, you're paying more for more testing. Although the DM10 / Maxline III shouldn't have different failure rates, it is likely that the additional QA catches some problems. Thus, the Maxline III should have a lower failure rate than the DM10.

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic...=18433&start=90

I guess I'll just have to wait for the OEM needs to be filled, before I can get mine :)

Or get the WD3200JB instead.

Back to topic again:

Anybody have more info on WD3200JB?

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Also, from the press release, it seems like all their newly made wdXXXXjX drives will have the upgraded features of the flagship wd3200jb, or am I mistaken? I'm specifically referring to quieter operation, improved cache algorithms, improved tranfer rates, etc.

Does anyone know if, generally speaking, larger capacity drives are typically faster than the smaller capacity ones in the same family of drives? Ex. wd1600jb faster than wd800jb? Does this depend on platter density?

Thanks

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As has been discussed elsewhere on the board, I think that the REAL difference between the DM10 and the MLIII is the warranty terms

198298[/snapback]

Doesn't the MLIII have a longer MTTF?

In the old world of tower cases, that didn't matter, you could ALWAYS find a place for old drives.  But in today's SFF world, 1-2 drives is the max for most cases, so cluttering up your systems with old drives is less than useful...

198298[/snapback]

Really, they're pretty useful in external (USB / firewire) enclosures.

Personally, I'd really like to see direct Ethernet attached devices come more into the mainstream. NAS, I think?

cheers, Martin

Edited by MartinP

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anyone know when the wd3200jD (SATA) will be available?  Any reason to think it would be any different than the wd3200jB (PATA) performance-wise?

198343[/snapback]

The bridge chip might be a reason to think that it will have slightly lower performance.

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Doesn't the MLIII have a longer MTTF?

Depends - they STATE that it does...but businesses have a habit of understating specifications to differentiat their products. Reminds me of the uproar around J&J soft contact lenses, when they sold the "monthy" wear lenses at a high price per pair, and the "daily" wear lenses cheaper per pair, supposedly due to "higher water content and oxygen permeability". After a few years of this, workers came forward and proved that they were actually made on the same mass production line, just packeged differently...same could be here - I DOUBT that Maxtor has two parallel production lines, and one just happens to produce an identical drive that happens to have a higher MTBF...

Really, they're pretty useful in external (USB / firewire) enclosures.

Personally, I'd really like to see direct Ethernet attached devices come more into the mainstream. NAS, I think?

cheers, Martin

198372[/snapback]

I agree on the external cases - my old WD 1200/2000JBs went into Venus USB cases for backups. But how many of those do you need?

Future Shock

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As has been discussed elsewhere on the board, I think that the REAL difference between the DM10 and the MLIII is the warranty terms, and the fact that Maxtor intentionally limits the ratio of ML III drives to DM10 drives they sell.  This allows them more financial reserves in the event of a cyclical downturn in the drive business, as they will not have so much debt tied up in anticipated warranty costs. 

Given that, it makes sense that the ML III will be available primarily to OEM solution producers, and the retail/enthusiast channels will have nearly all DM10s.  I personally wanted ML IIIs, but bought 2 DM10s, as it isn't all that often that a drive is top of the line in more than 3 years anyway..  In the old world of tower cases, that didn't matter, you could ALWAYS find a place for old drives.  But in today's SFF world, 1-2 drives is the max for most cases, so cluttering up your systems with old drives is less than useful...

Future Shock

198298[/snapback]

Yes, from what I heard DM10 and ML3 is only different by the testing they went through and the warranty. They do test it for longer time with tighter margin, so they are the PRIME drives that have better quality, and will most likely last longer. This goes for processor from Intel/AMD as well, same silicon cut into dies that are tested up to different quality and sold for different speed/price, but your overclocking milages may vary wildly. So it is a matter of price vs. risk/worst case scenario.

If you want ML3 quality you may have higher chance of getting them in a DELL or HP, where they always get the prime drives, then the retail kit ML3 or DM10, then small gray market and Fry's (they sell everything, I saw a Deskstar 7 years ago with hand soldered resistor reworks).

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