Davin

IBM Deskstar 120GXP

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This article might be worth the read, but IMHO it misses the point--and clearly IBM does too.

http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,...&a=23799,00.asp

"IBM added that "power-on" figure to its spec sheets to give customers a sense for the expected usage pattern, Shivaji said, adding that customers are buying the drives for other applications besides PCs."

Well if it's a usage pattern, then why was it included with the specifications? Intended application statements are usually included with the product brochure--not with the reliability specifications section.

Q: This spec is new with the 120GXP series, not other manufactures have used this specification.  Was this spec introduced as a marketing strategy or a technical issue?

A:  It's definitely a technical issue

According to the conversation between an SR reader and an IBM senior tech, this is a technical consideration--the fact that it's included with the drive's specifications seems to suggest this is true.

"And even that's pretty generous," she said. "It's like a car or a television. You can run it 24 hours a day, but if you do so your usage life will go down."

Fair enough, but if that's the case, then as the analyst from firm DISK/TREND states:

"That's something like 114 years without turning the drive off, and 300,000 hours is about 35 years straight. I can assure you that disk drives are built to a solid reliability standard."

That would indicate that even if a drive designed to run only a 11 hours a day--or even 8-- were to be run 24/7, a reliably engineered drive would likely be obsolete before failing. Is that the case with the GXP series? If it is in fact a reliable drive--and IBM believes it to be--then why would they even need to make such a "recommendation" for POH.

Originally, like most everyone else here, I considered that the recommended POH was related to their class action suit to liability. Now I think it hurts them more than hurts--if this is a technical issue, and the drive should not be powered more than 8-11 hours a day, then shouldn't this have been disclosed with the 60GXP and 75GXP series as well? Is the 120GXP engineered so differently from its predecessors that it requires this POH recommendation? ...or does doing so logically increase the reliability of a troubled GXP family?

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Thread Consolidation:

120GXP in regards to the 333 recommended POH

http://forums.storagereview.net/viewtopic.php?t=1797

About IBM trashed reputation!

http://forums.storagereview.net/viewtopic.php?t=1848

60 GXP still kickin'

http://forums.storagereview.net/viewtopic.php?t=1608

Help! Two brand new dead GXP120's?

http://forums.storagereview.net/viewtopic.php?t=1843

IBM complaints and plea for advice

http://forums.storagereview.net/viewtopic.php?t=1816

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I have installed in my System a 40GB HD of that type it is used from January 10th and onwards many times within a week in a 24h basis. So I am pretty sure I have used it for more than 333h/month. I don't have any serious problems so far and I can say that is really quite. More noisy are the 4 funs working on my system that the HD. Anyway I hope I won't experiense any problems in the future but I would like to be informed if someone else does.

Bill

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According to IBM, exceeding 333 power on hours montly and/or more than 66 hours a month are expended for drive activity (e.g., seeks, reads, writes), the drive will have a shorter service life. Service life is approximately 20,000 hours, which means that if the drive were on 24/7, the drive is rated to last a minimum of 2 years and 3 months.

So by IBM's account, exceeding the recommended power on hours shortens the overall longevity, but does not mean immediate failure.

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Well now that IBM has replied I'm not worried. Besides, I don't know why everyone says the RMA process with IBM sucks. I got my hd back in 7 days, and they gave me a 30GB 60GXP to replace my 75GXP.

My stats: One 75GXP failed twice within a year, 6 60GXPs still running since last year. And I looked at the 120GXP thread from earlier, and there are some stupid people there saying "You haven't learned yet?!" People, it's one thing to get a DOA drive, it's another to have one fail on you 6 months down the road. And why does newegg ship it so light, I don't know, cause earlier they shipped it like IBM says you should, with foam.

Curious as to what an IBM drive is doing when it fails? http://home.mpinet.net/joesoid/75gxp.mpg

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I was wondering if my train of thought was correct in this:

I looked at the prices of hard drives on price watcher and I concluded that 7200rpm drives above 60GB are by comparison of there same manufacturers the same price per gig all the way up to 120GB (or pretty close to the same price).

So, should I get better speed from two 60GB ($200) hard drives and a raid card ($40) set to sripe them as I would with a 120GB ($230) from the same manufacturer?

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IDE RAID is a tricky thing. First, some manufactures only offer marginal gains in RAID 0. Second, with IDE RAID 0, you may want to consider your reliability needs carefully, particularly with IBM considering the lineage--it's a very slippery slope.

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Well first I see your point on the IBM drives, I can get two WD 60GB for about the same price but their benchmarks aren't quite as good as the IBMs' according to their reviews. But your probably right the reliability is the biggest factor.

But I thoght the whole point of RAID 0 (striping) is to increase speed. Is it that most aid manufactureers are shooting for oother RAID setting (i.e. 1...) performance instead of RAID 0?

Plus wouldn't be like having 4MB of drive cahce?

What do you think of the quality of "built into the motherboard RAID"?

Thanks

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What do you think of the quality of "built into the motherboard RAID"?

It's crap, don't touch that. Only use integrated crippled onboard RAID controllers as additional independant IDE channels, but don't use them for RAID arrays. They are unreliable and won't give you much improved performances.

RAID isn't for the average Joe.

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I recently installed a 40 gig 120GXP on a Promise Ultra100 TX2 IDE controller (very fast, testing out 6x faster than my old WD 4 gig drive). But the drive is making an occasional high-pitched "buzzing" sound, it's brief, but annoying, and seems to happen periodically (every 10-15 min or so). The sound appears to be unrelated to disk usage, which causes a lower pitched, longer duration sound that is normal of head seeking activity, and much less objectionable. Has anyone else noticed the "buzz"? It's unlike any hard disk noise I've heard. I turned off SmartDefender just to make sure it wasn't doing some kind of automatic disk test, and the sound continued.

Thanks in advance,

Kevin

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I recently installed a 40 gig 120GXP on a Promise Ultra100 TX2 IDE controller (very fast, testing out 6x faster than my old WD 4 gig drive).  But the drive is making an occasional high-pitched "buzzing" sound, it's brief, but annoying, and seems to happen periodically (every 10-15 min or so).  The sound appears to be unrelated to disk usage, which causes a lower pitched, longer duration sound that is normal of head seeking activity, and much less objectionable.  Has anyone else noticed the "buzz"?  It's unlike any hard disk noise I've heard.  I turned off SmartDefender just to make sure it wasn't doing some kind of automatic disk test, and the sound continued.

Thanks in advance,

Kevin

Subsequent private correspondence with IBM follows:

From: IBMTGTech@us.ibm.com

Reply-to: drive@us.ibm.com

Subject: Response (RefNum:209-801-912-1)

To: kevin...

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:18:12 -0500

Hello. I believe the noises you hear are not a problem with the drive. They are part of an Idle Time Function. This drive periodically saves data in logs and PFA (Predictive Failure Analysis) counters in the reserved area of the disks. The drive uses this data to support various SCSI commands and to perform failure analysis. The saving of data occurs if the drive has not received a command for 10 minutes and causes noise. The execution time is about 300 ms. Does this sound about right? If not please let us know and we will look into this further for you.

Thank You for Contacting IBM

Luanne

====================================

From: IBMTGTech@us.ibm.com

Reply-to: drive@us.ibm.com

Subject: IBM Technical Support Center Request #209-829-302-9

To: kevin...

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:31:01 -0500

Kevin,

There is no way to silence the idle time noises.

Regards,

Tanya K.

------------------ In Response To ------------------

Subject: Response (RefNum:209-801-912-1)

Thank you for your prompt response. The Idle Time Function noise you describe below matches closely the noise I'm hearing. Maybe it's just me, but this noise is very unpleasant, in the way that a "screeching chaulk" noise is unpleasant. Is there any way I can reduce the noise, perhaps in the AAM software in IBM Feature Tool?

In all areas, save this one, the drive is really superb.

Thanks again,

Kevin

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Hmm.. with everyone calling IBM drives crap, I'd like to make a small statement..

I have an old IBM 15gb running for a very long time, bought more than 3 years ago. it generates 0 errors in scandisk per year..

and a much never Seagate 30gb, the problem with this one isn't absolute failures, but instead minor faults, like the drive "loosing" 100mb data in the Windows directory, not so much fun considering you've got to reinstall the entire f***ing system. and generates about a hundred errors in scandisc, per month..

Now, for complete failures I've only had a few, my little sisters computer that gets very badly handled it's drive failed after about 4 years and 5 chassi changes...

the other one was my neighbours brand new computer, the thing here was that it was positioned in an odd way... power connector UP, instead of backwards, it stood on it's head basically. this made it fail after 6 months or so, I know of others that had similar cases with harddrives placed this way and they All failed in an very short time..

and something completely out of the blue; if air against these platters generate heat, why not use vacuum inside the drive?

and if you consider IBM to give bad support, I guess you've never had "Telia" (sweden) as an internet provider. YUCK! increase price by 2, and decrease speed by half... and then tell you it's your fault or that it's your computer that sucks.. (I've had the same since I got the connection)

but do check if your drive lies down, with chipsets down and metal up.

I've seen "professional" oems place the drives upside down.

and Umm.. do try to use a big case, it makes for cooler systems, small ones have a big tendency to fail..

and make sure to buy a Good power supply, cheap ones give uneven power, might fluctuate OR be too much or too little, both makes the system unstable... too much might burn out components prematurely, or immediately, (been there, done that)

okey, that's a big amount of junk but hope it might stir up some thoughts... :P

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and something completely out of the blue; if air against these platters generate heat, why not use vacuum inside the drive?

It is the aerodynamics that keeps the head from hitting the platter.

You need the air.

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hmm.. maybe they'll find some gas that works better or something..

that conduct large parts of the excess heat? heh, like I know.. :P

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hmm.. maybe they'll find some gas that works better or something..

that conduct large parts of the excess heat? heh, like I know.. :P

The problem is drives aren't hermetically sealed. Even if you filled them with, say, argon gas, it'd eventually leak out over time.

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I was wondering if anyone can help me with this new drive. Just bought the IBM Deskstar 120gxp (80gb) drive, and for the life of me, I cannot get this damn drive to perform! I could actually partition and format the drive and install Win98se, but it runs dog slow no matter what I set in my BIOS, enable DMA or not in Windows, run as master or slave alone or aside my ole Maxtor 7200/ata100 40gb, etc. etc.

I first used partition magic 7 to create 4 - 19gb partitions & formatted, then wiped the disk clean again and used good ole MS fdisk & format to create the above partitions, and STILL the drive runs pitifully slow.. no exaggeration here. ;( Basically the drive takes forever to read/write files, the HDD led flickers very slow (in leiu of the steady ON led on large file xfers I'm used to w/the Maxtor!) and the mouse cursor barely "skips" across the screen while xfers are taking place. The whole system comes to a crawl... not allowing ANY multi-tasking to occour. I've used IBM's 2 utilities (fitness test & feature tool) and everything checked out OK... ata100, 2mb buffer, max performance all set already. The 3 "dopes" (sorry, but these "kids" IBM hires for tech support are cluless about hardware!) I spoke to at IBM tech support were of no help, other than offering an RMA for my 1 week old new drive! ;( Below are my system specs:

(new) AthlonXP 1800+

(new) Abit kt7a rev 1.3 board (newest 8T bios)

3 128mb stix Tonicom PC150

Enermax 300w p.s.

(new) Thermalright AX-7 heatsink w/Delta 60cfm fan

Arctic Silver III

yes... the 80-wire IDE cable! ;]

(new) Artec 32/12/48 cdr-w (master on IDE2)

(new) IBM Deskstar 120gxp 80gb (master on IDE1)

case fans: 120mm in/bottom, 80mm in/top, 2-80mm out/top-back

Soundblaster Live! gamer 5.1

2-Realtek pci NIC's

p.s.: Yes I am using the 80 wire cable for the IBM, yes, the blue header is on the mobo, yes I've tried jumpers on master, slave, and cable select bith with & without my old Maxtor 40gb 7200 drive. ;]

Thanx in advance for anyone who can help!

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have you tried running the WD alone?

you should make sure that the other drive that is on the same cable is set to master(slave present) most modern drives have that setting.

or if they decided to make things tricky it says drive is: 0(1 present)

the same applies to the WD harddrive.

the WD drive is a ATA100 drive, is the other drives also ATA100?

if not you might be forced to run the WD on it's own cable. (my computer crash with uneven speeds on the drives)

you must also install all drivers, if you have a VIA chip onboard their 4 in 1 drives make a massive speed impact, if none of the above works, try to exchange the drive, it might just be broken...

and a last thing, make sure there is no conflicts in drive manager =)

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They aren't, but can be..? :)

Yes, they can be completely sealed up; no, it's not a good idea, because you need to let the drive "breathe" when there are changes in altitude or humidity in order to equalize the pressure/humidity inside the drive. Most current designs almost completely seal the drive up, only allowing it to "breathe" through the breather hole, where some type of labyrinth path or filter controls humidity/air going in and out.

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hey! I'm quite sure what your problem is now! I checked your motherboard out and the IDE controller chipset on that card can't handle the new Western Digital drive! it has problems finding it and so on.

the only solution for you is to actually get another harddrive! :(

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They aren't, but can be..? :)

Yes, they can be completely sealed up; no, it's not a good idea, because you need to let the drive "breathe" when there are changes in altitude or humidity in order to equalize the pressure/humidity inside the drive. Most current designs almost completely seal the drive up, only allowing it to "breathe" through the breather hole, where some type of labyrinth path or filter controls humidity/air going in and out.

hmm... I'm sure they'll find a new and better way of storing data permanently than these spinning discs, making this discussion useless :P

wonder where that laser cube theory went?

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Correct me if im wrong in this assumption but i am assuming that the 120GB version of the 120GXP performs about the same as the 40GB version correct? If this is so, does the 400BB 40GB version of the Western Digital perform at about the same rate as the 800BB or the 1200BB? The reason i am asking this is that i need a 40GB drive and the 1200BB is a better performer than the 120GXP but is the 400BB a better performer than the 120GXP? Also, has anyone had any problems with the 120GXP failing or anything of that sort?

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Correct me if im wrong in this assumption but i am assuming that the 120GB version of the 120GXP performs about the same as the 40GB version correct?  If this is so, does the 400BB 40GB version of the Western Digital perform at about the same rate as the 800BB or the 1200BB?  The reason i am asking this is that i need a 40GB drive and the 1200BB is a better performer than the 120GXP but is the 400BB a better performer than the 120GXP?  Also, has anyone had any problems with the 120GXP failing or anything of that sort?

That's confusing. I haven't heard of any 400BB that has 40GB platter. Only latest models of 800BB and 800JB use 40GB platters. Did Western Digital change 400BB too?

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sorry if it sounded confusing. that was kind of my question though that you were mentioning. does the 400BB perform on par with the 1200BB? im not too sure about the plater situation of the two, perhaps someone could clear that up for me. pretty much what im asking is 40GB and 120GB IBM 120GXP's perform at about the same rate right? Do the WD 40GB and 120GB they have perform at the same rate? If any of my assumptions are wrong please correct me. :?: :!: :mrgreen:

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