Gooberslot

Did I Get Another Bad Samsung?

Recommended Posts

Are you sure that your P80 doesn't hum at all? But does it vibrate? I mean, touch it with your hand and tell me if you feel any vibration.

The humming is difficult to notice because it is very diffuse. Only when you power down the drive (puting it to sleep) you will be able to notice the difference.

If I put my ear to the drive I can notice a hum but I don't think that counts. If there's a hum it must be below the level of even my power supply fan which is pretty quiet. As for vibration I can feel some but I can't tell if it's coming from the Samsung or my old WD.

I don't know if any shock in delivery can damage the motor and increase noise. Maybe this would explain the difference between units.

Someone in the Article Feecback forum implied this when I mentioned my variations between drives. But both mine came packed in styrofoam peanuts in addition to the plastic Samsung container. I thought modern drives were much more resistant to shock.

I've run across a much more serious problem with mine though. I was playing around with Speedfan and I decided to take a look at the S.M.A.R.T. tab and noticed that the Spin Up Time was at 69 which seemed kinda low. It also said my Drive's Fitness was 69%. Anyway, next time I turned on my computer it had dropped to 62. I powered down and checked again and this time it had dropped to 52! Now it's back up to 62. This is especially worrying seeing as my old WD is at 103 with the worst at 92. I've emailed Samsung asking what it should be but I think I may have sent it to the wrong people, I chose Product Information when I probably should have chosen Service. I may have to send another email. If anyone's still reading this thread and has a SMART monitoring utility could you please check and tell me what yours is.

If I have to wind up sending this back too I think I'll try a different vendor just in case it is shipping that's damaging them. I may even try a different brand. I've never had this much trouble with a hard drive. I have a drive from '97 that's still as good as the day I got it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many S.M.A.R.T. values don't make sense. Don't be too scared.

Using SpeedFan, I have retrieved the following values for 4 of my disks:

(The entries are for Spinup time Value, Worst, and Fitness%)

Seagate BATA 7200.7 120GB: 97,97,43%

Seagate BATA IV 80GB: 83,80,43%

Samsung V80 160GB: 73,70,70%

Samsung V80 160GB(newone):73,73,73%

As you see, the "drive fitness" is a mad value. I wouldn't trust it much.

You can also use HDDHEALTH instead of SpeedFan. You will get an "extended tab" with lots of new values.

Regarding value fluctuations, HDDHEALT reports value fluctuations for my Seagates. I don't remember the precise parameter... something like "read error rate changes from X to Y". Apparently, this is normal for Seagates.

So don't get too scared if you see fluctuations in some values.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually didn't pay too much attention to the drive fitness thing but it's kinda worrying when you get a 15 point drop in Sping Up Time in a 24 hour period of time. Small fluctuations don't bother me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I also noticed that all your drives have much higher values than mine. Especially my Worst which is 51.

Yeah that happened to me recently on a Seagate 7200.7 drive. The dam SMART just kept falling, only mine was for the "Raw Read Error Rate" and "Seek Error Rate" fields which is even more disturbing. Eventually the drive settled (after a few days) to a fitness of about 55 and has stayed pretty stable since then. I still think that this particular drive will more likely than not die young.

I'm not quite sure exactly what the implication of slightly slow spin-up time is on a drives health or exaclty what this parameter translates to in terms of drive internals. But I do find this paramater is normally less than 100% on most new drives I use these days.

BTW, the real bad one to keep an eye on in that SMART monitor is "Reallocated Sector counter (Reallocated Event Counter). If this one starts to drop rapidly (or the raw vaules start to rise rapidly) then it's almost always that drive death is near. If the raw data in these field are still zero then that is a good sign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are my values for my Samsung P80 (8MB cache):

Spinup Time: 61,61(wst)

Fitness 61%

And for another Seagate BATA IV (80GB)

Spinup Time: 72, 70(wst)

Fitness 43%

And yet another BATA IV (80GB)

Spinup Time: 70, 70(wst)

Fitness 43%

There is something weird in the Samsung SMART values:

I get value=253 for several parameters (Raw error rate, Reallocation count, etc)

But shouldn't SMART values be between 0% and 100%? being 100% the optimal value and 0% the worst value? someone help me here. :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding Spinup time:

Q: What is "Spin up time"? My disk reports "Spin up time" about 75, is it about to crash?

A: "Spin up time" describes amount of time it took to spin the platters up to their rated rotation speed (usually 5400 or 7200 RPM). Values above 80 should be considered good. Values between 70 and 80 are still acceptable. There is a known issue with Quantum (Maxtor) hard drives - out-of-the-box new drives drop "Spin up time" to 70 within first two weeks of use, causing program to predict failure within a month. This is usually a false alarm. After some initial "burn-in" period "Spin up time" becomes constant and the drive functions normally.

http://www.drivehealth.com/faq.html

@Gooberslot

my P80 has a SUT= 61, yours is 62, so I think this is the normal value for the P80.

Your drop to 51, must have been a temporary anomaly. It shouldn't happen again. Check it frequently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I though for the sake of comparison I'd post both my drives full SMART data. Here goes.

Samsung SP1213N:

Raw Read Error Rate 100 51 100

Spin Up Time 61 0 51

Start/Stop Count 100 0 100

Reallocated Sector Count 253 10 253

Seek Error Rate 253 51 253

Seek Time Performance 253 0 253

Power On Hours Count 100 0 100

Spin Retry Count 253 49 253

Power Cycle Count 100 0 100

Temperature 118 0 106

Hardware ECC recovered 100 0 100

Reallocation Event Count 253 0 253

Current Pending Sector Coun 253 10 253

Off-line Scan Uncorrectable 253 10 253

Ultra ATA CRC Error Count 100 51 100

Write Error Rate 100 51 100

TA Counter Detected 100 51 100

The Samsung seems to be stabilizing at 61-62. That seems to be about what you're getting so maybe that's normal for this drive. I still don't like it.

Now here's my almost 4 year old WD 30gig:

Raw Read Error Rate 200 51 200

Spin Up Time 102 0 92

Start/Stop Count 97 40 97

Reallocated Sector Count 200 112 200

Power On Hours Count 75 0 75

Spin Retry Count 100 51 100

Calibration Retry Count 100 51 100

Power Cycle Count 99 0 99

Reallocation Event Count 200 0 200

Current Pending Sector Coun 200 0 200

Off-line Scan Uncorrectable 200 0 200

Ultra ATA CRC Error Count 200 0 200

Write Error Rate 200 51 199

And people say WD's are unreliable. Those are some pretty good numbers. Especially for a drive with 18000+ hours on it. Notice that the Spin Up Time actually exceeds the maximum. :)

I don't know if my really old WD even supports SMART but I'll hook it up and check. Should be interesting to see how a 6+ year old drive fares. I have a feeling it'll outlast everything else.

I wish we could get someone else in this thread who knew more about SMART but it looks like everyone has abandoned us. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot to mention something. You asked how Spin Up Time related to the drives internals. I read somewhere that it corresponds to the health of the spindle. Low SUT means a spindle problem. The Spin Retry Count is even more serious. If that ever drops failure could be imminent.

BTW, I hope you find a better store to buy from if they're shipping your drives without any protection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Spin Up Time of 62 is normal for a 2-platter P80, our SP1604N (which does vibrate, but not too much) also shows this value. My new SV0802N is at 81. (Received that one with good packaging.) No detectable hum, and only a very soft whine (more like singing) that vanishes when the drive is warmed up. The rest of the system is much louder than that...

Stephan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess the Spinup time value has different meanings for each different vendor.

Maybe they are using different scales. According to the article I mentioned before, certain Maxtor drives also has a low value:70 right from the beginning, and it fluctuates in the first 2 weeks of life.

Then, I won't worry much about it.

Yes, I will try to look for a different store. Some stores put the drive in a special foam case. The store that sold me the V80s they simply put the drive with the plastic Samsung enclosure, without aditional protection. Thats really stupid of them. I wonder what is it going on in their brains to do this kind of things. :blink:

I called them to tell about it, and they said "next time, tell your commercial about it", but they didn't take any action to train the persons who are preparing the packages. Morons!

Here is the SMART data for my P80 (160GB, 8MB cache) drive, according to HDDHEALTH (the values are the same than those of SpeedFan):

Parameters info for SAMSUNG SP1614N

Date: 24/01/2004 Time: 14:11:03

Serial number: ---------------

Firmware rev: TM100-24

Capacity: 134,22 GB

Ultra DMA: Mode 5

S.M.A.R.T.: Enabled

S.M.A.R.T. attribute Value Threshold Worst

Raw Read Error Rate 253 51 253 -RAW=0000...00002

Spin Up Time 61 0 61

Start/Stop Count 100 0 100

Reallocated Sector Count 253 10 253

Seek Error Rate 253 51 253

Seek Time Performance 253 0 253

Power On Hours Count 100 0 100

Spin Retry Count 253 49 253

Power Cycle Count 100 0 100

Temperature 199 0 121

Hardware ECC recovered 100 0 100

Reallocation Event Count 253 0 253

Current Pending Sector Coun 253 10 253

Off-line Scan Uncorrectable 253 10 253

Ultra ATA CRC Error Count 253 51 253

Write Error Rate 100 51 100

TA Counter Detected 253 51 253

note the Raw error rate: 253. Yours is 100. Maybe the scale is different?

Note that my drive is a P80, 160GB, 8MB cache.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Raw Error Rate in my V80 drives is

Value=100, Worst=100, Threshold=51

So it seems that my P80 is using a different scale (range=253)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And people say WD's are unreliable.  Those are some pretty good numbers.

Indeed they are... but the numbers from the Samsung drives are just as good. Without knowing how exactly to interpret these numbers (varies by manufacturer and model), one can't conclude that one drive is in better shape because the attribute values are higher. The most interesting values would be the raw attribute values, which unfortunately you didn't post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Indeed they are... but the numbers from the Samsung drives are just as good. Without knowing how exactly to interpret these numbers (varies by manufacturer and model), one can't conclude that one drive is in better shape because the attribute values are higher. The most interesting values would be the raw attribute values, which unfortunately you didn't post.

Here's some screenshots of Speedfan showing the raw values. I have no idea what they mean.

http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/anime5/rjak/samsung.png

http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/anime5/rjak/wd.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are hexadecimal numbers. At least the "counter" values are easy to interpret, for example Start/Stop count, Reallocation event count and Power-on hours. The drive just increments those over time, or when an event occurs.

The reason the raw numbers are more interesting is because one or two reallocated sectors may not result in a change of the corresponding attribute value. It may still remain at 100/250/whatever the maximum value is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Samsungs have a very low (or zero) Raw Read Error Rate.

The Seagate Barracudas, very high, and always fluctuationg (HDDHEALTH always popping up warnings...).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, how do my raw numbers look?

Good, actually every other attribute (apart from spin up time) is basically showing a "perfect" score.

I'm not exactly sure what (if any) indication spin up time is of the general health of important stuff like media integrety etc, but I suspect it is not a very strong indicator.

Perhaps the guys a Samsung just didn't properly calibrate their "spinup time" reference values for dual platter drives or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Gooberslot:

as you can see, your WD drive also has had a "slow" spinup time. The normal value is 102, but in some occasion, it did just 92. Maybe this abnormal spinups are normal in the first weeks of life. Maybe the bearings are "stuck", or solidified, due to storage, and the drive has some difficulty spinning up. I don't know.

Regarding the absolute value, I wouldn't be worried. It seems that the normal value for the P80 is 61 or 62. For the WD it is 102, but it is probably a matter of scale.

The rest of the values look ok.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see your WD also has a perfect score in Raw Read Error Rate.

All my Samsungs have a perfect score too, but none of my Seagates have

a perfect score. All of them have a pretty bad RRER, and it fluctuates,

triggering HDDHEALTH alarms.

Also, I have 2 Seagates with reallocated sectors (14 and 18).

All my Samsungs have zero RS.

If someone knows something about this, please, tell me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I see your WD also has a perfect score in Raw Read Error Rate.

All my Samsungs have a perfect score too, but none of my Seagates have

a perfect score. All of them have a pretty bad RRER, and it fluctuates,

triggering HDDHEALTH alarms.

Also, I have 2 Seagates with reallocated sectors (14 and 18).

All my Samsungs have zero RS.

If someone knows something about this, please, tell me.

Hi arga, I've had exactly the same experience of raw error rates (and seek error rates btw) with my Seagates (both cudaIV's and 7200.7's types). Apparently this is normal for the Seagates and something to do with the vendor specific SMART reporting.

As for the reallocated sector count that is a bit a worry, especially if it increases rapidly. I had a bunch of Cuda IV's manufactured about june 2002 that all got bad sectors and died within a year but I think that might have been something of a bad batch. After the third failure I stopped using Seagate and changed to WD. Since my other Seagates (made both before and after the time period of these questionable drives) seem to be holding up alright I would considered trying Seagate again - only now Samsung seems to be a better alternative anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@uart

Apparently this is normal for the Seagates and something to do with the vendor specific SMART reporting.

yes, it could be that the Seagates are being more honest than the others :D

but I don't know really...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@uart

As for the reallocated sector count that is a bit a worry, especially if it increases rapidly.

no, it is stabilized. Maybe these sectors were there from the beginning.

My BATA IV (bought in June 2002) has 18 reallocations, and my BATA IV (bought in Feb, 2003) has 14 reallocations.

The SeaTools diagnostics were passed ok, without mention to these reallocations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've asked Samsung support about the Spin-up Time. According to them, it doesn't mean anything. My research has shown that this attribute is sensitive to other devices in the same ATA channel. Normally my drive shows 61-62. If I insert my IBM 120GXP as slave (using Kingwin rack), the value drops to 41-42. If I put my old IBM 16GP in, the value drops to 8%!

SpeedFan shows "fitness 8%" all the time, also this is the "worst" entry in "Spin-Up Time".

It's always better to look at the RAW values. BTW, the Samsung drive logs one "POH count" every thirty seconds, and "Start/stop count" logs both starts and stops.

Cheers,

Jan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks Jan. then it seems that the Spinup time is a wild value.

Regarding POH every 30 seconds, yes I noticed that HDDHEALTH updates the "minuties" count every 30 seconds. Then a minutie=30 secs.

@uart:

As for the reallocated sector count that is a bit a worry, especially if it increases rapidly. I had a bunch of Cuda IV's manufactured about june 2002 that all got bad sectors and died within a year but I think that might have been something of a bad batch.

would you please tell me more about these failed drives? how the Reallocated Sector Count evolved with time? what values did you got?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now