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f_vo

Criminals Should Not Be Boss Over Their Own Body..

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Picture this:

life sentensed criminals should be owned by government. I mean when there is need fore half a liver or one kidney this should be taken from a prisoner to help people in need. Those having A negative should give blood (that would need testing, but so is everything).

That way criminals would repay community for their expenses made to keep them alive, to feed them, and so on...Misery they caused would be compensated to a small degree.

Anyone in favor? :rolleyes:

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Why not guys, afterall we are talking about criminals put away FOR LIFE. So they commited a heavy crime like killing people...

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Why not guys, afterall we are talking about criminals put away FOR LIFE. So they commited a heavy crime like killing people...

They are also human beings. The idea of using prisoners for medical research and whatnot went out of style with Josef Mengele & Co.

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Go read some Larry Niven that include his discussions of Organ Banks. I would suggest reading A Gift From Earth and see if you still think the same way about this topic afterwards.

From a superficial examination of governement/people, your argument makes some sense. If you look at the long term implications, it is a road that I don't want to even start walking down.

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I mentioned something in another thread about using criminal volunteers for medical experimentation instead of animals. This would be the criminal's choice, and in return I would give them thier freedom and government support for life if they survived the experiment. However, I don't think it would be ethical to involuntary force criminals to give body parts or take part in medical experiments. This is getting into Josef Mengele territory. We'll probably be able to clone body parts soon anyway, so the point is likely moot.

P.S. I certainly support using forced labor of criminals as part of their punishment and rehabilitation, and also to make them pay for their incarceration. This would be similar to the highly successful Reform Through Manual Labor program used in China. However, provided the working conditions are humane, this principle has already been upheld by the courts. It doesn't violate any human rights to force a prisoner to work a reasonable number of hours per day.

P.P.S A more sensible way to deal with long term criminals in my opinion is to just throw them in an isolated, fenced off area and let them fend for themselves. I'd rather do this in place of incarceration or the death penalty as it removes the person from society for good, and costs nothing in the way of support.

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I mentioned something in another thread about using criminal volunteers for medical experimentation instead of animals.  This would be the criminal's choice, and in return I would give them thier freedom and government support for life if they survived the experiment.  However, I don't think it would be ethical to involuntary force criminals to give body parts or take part in medical experiments.  This is getting into Josef Mengele territory.  We'll probably be able to clone body parts soon anyway, so the point is likely moot.

P.S. I certainly support using forced labor of criminals as part of their punishment and rehabilitation, and also to make them pay for their incarceration.  This would be similar to the highly successful Reform Through Manual Labor program used in China.  However, provided the working conditions are humane, this principle has already been upheld by the courts.  It doesn't violate any human rights to force a prisoner to work a reasonable number of hours per day.

P.P.S A more sensible way to deal with long term criminals in my opinion is to just throw them in an isolated, fenced off area and let them fend for themselves.  I'd rather do this in place of incarceration or the death penalty as it removes the person from society for good, and costs nothing in the way of support.

Participation in a medical experiment doesn't absolve them of their crimes, and is not a punishment.

There is no "forced" labor in the US prison system. You can not require work, and use force to make certain they do. You can say that "everyone" works and that those who remain behind must do so in confinement though.

Ever see "Escape from NY"? They turn manhattan into a prison.

Frank

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Participation in a medical experiment doesn't absolve them of their crimes, and is not a punishment.

There is no "forced" labor in the US prison system.  You can not require work, and use force to make certain they do.  You can say that "everyone" works and that those who remain behind must do so in confinement though.

Ever see "Escape from NY"?  They turn manhattan into a prison.

Frank

That's very true, although I tend to think of criminals more like bad parts that need to be either fixed or discarded. I guess it's the engineer in me. I don't care about "eye for an eye" or any other type of "punishment". That's backwards, emotional thinking even though I'll readily admit to feeling that way myself sometimes. Prisons should rehabilitate lesser criminals and then release them back into society once they're deemed safe. No fixed sentences, but rather indeterminant ones which depend more on how fast the criminal can reform. Of course, we need better methods than we have now. As for hardened criminals who can't be reformed, what's the sense of locking them up for ten, twenty, thirty years, or even life? Just dump them somewhere as I suggested if they can't be reformed after five years. I see any point "punishing" criminals. It diminishes society and probably does nothing to make the criminal a productive member of society once again. Criminals are just carbon-based computers gone bad. Either reprogram them or dump them in the scrap heap. I frequently laugh when I hear people who oppose a death penalty on grounds that it's inhumane, and then they would rather keep the person locked up in a box for 50 years. If that isn't worse and more sadistic, then I don't know what is. I would personally take my own life if I were faced with a prison sentence of more than a few months. Giving up your freedom is a horrible thing.

BTW, are you 100% sure that we can't require inmates to work in the US? We really should be able to. As you yourself pointed out in another thread, there are loads of useful things inmates can do, and I think it would help their rehabilitation.

I remember "Escape From NY". Stupid premise turning the most valuable real estate in the US into a prison, but that is the general idea I have. If the inmates all want to kill other, that's their perogative, but at least we'll be rid of the ones who can't be reformed and we won't be paying to support them for life.

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Recent advances in DNA evidence have proven that many murderers and rapists were wrongly convicted. What if you were the wrongly convicted one. Would you want someone to take your organs?

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Recent advances in DNA evidence have proven that many murderers and rapists were wrongly convicted.  What if you were the wrongly convicted one.  Would you want someone to take your organs?

Or throw you on an island, where no one would look at your case again?

Also, how does one determine when a criminal has be "rehabilitated?"

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Why not guys, afterall we are talking about criminals put away FOR LIFE. So they commited a heavy crime like killing people...

They are also human beings. The idea of using prisoners for medical research and whatnot went out of style with Josef Mengele & Co.

No, i do not mean to use them for experiments. Someone who killed one or more persons and is sentensed for life should not get the chair or injection, but should "donate" his body to mankind. So if ever YOU need a kidney (one that fits) you would be glad to get one, even from a prisoner.

Mengele was a barbarian.

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And when they win an appeal?  Or when evidence comes to light that proves their innocence?  Do we just go...  Umm...  Sorry bout that!

Frank

Well Frank, you have a point there. But when executed there is no turning back either. Let's talk about those guilty without any doubt....

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The US has laws against cruel and unusual punishment.  I'd say that taking someone's organs is cruel and unusual.

i give you the "unusual" SuperC. On the other hand it is not so cruel to take a part of a liver to save another human being. Afterall when killing one or more people, that person should not have any rights left at all, except be threated humanly.

But changes are that you are not threated humanly by your fellow inmates....

SO:

1) you are not executing him/her

2) one cannot be compared to Mengele, since one is helping others

3) the criminal who made others suffer (the killed ones and their relatives), would do something in return

4) it costs enough to feed them and to watch them

5) many of them still are commiting crimes in jail (rape, intimidation, fights, more killing)

But i read you guys load and clear. Please let them stay in the Hilton, they deserve it....

At least in the states when you get for life it is for life. Overhere you get for life and if you have BAD LUCK, you only come free after 10-15 years....

:blink:

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2) one cannot be compared to Mengele, since one is helping others

I'm certain he was helping someone as well. And doing valuable scientific experiments. Helping mankind. ... :rolleyes:

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And when they win an appeal?  Or when evidence comes to light that proves their innocence?  Do we just go...  Umm...  Sorry bout that!

Frank

Well Frank, you have a point there. But when executed there is no turning back either. Let's talk about those guilty without any doubt....

You are speaking to a man who is against execution. I am all for taking away an individuals right to live, but the one who actually throws the switch is a murderer. You can't kill someone simply cause they don't deserve to live anymore. There are other ways to remove them from society.

Thank you for your time,

FranK Russo

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They do this in China. Schedual executions around the needs of organ transplanters. For that reason alone, I find the idea abhorrant...

The most sensible retort in this thread...nice.

FS

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They do this in China. Schedual executions around the needs of organ transplanters. For that reason alone, I find the idea abhorrant...

We are not talking about execution here, jut talking about taking something away that can be missed (to a certain degree), like one kidney, a part of a liver, blood. I was not talking about cutting out someones heart. Take this further, skin can be taken away also, whatever is needed without having to kill the killer-criminals. :blink:

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They do this in China. Schedual executions around the needs of organ transplanters. For that reason alone, I find the idea abhorrant...

We are not talking about execution here, jut talking about taking something away that can be missed (to a certain degree), like one kidney, a part of a liver, blood. I was not talking about cutting out someones heart. Take this further, skin can be taken away also, whatever is needed without having to kill the killer-criminals. :blink:

Oh well then... thats compleatly different... NOT...

So what you sentince someone to give up a kidney for a murder?

No this doesnt sound fair, or workable...

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F’vo, quite apart from the points already raised that, I feel, amply demonstrate the flaws in your idea,

I don’t think that any society can survive if the values it holds are undermined from within. Especially if the undermining process takes the form of an official state policy.

What? I fear I’ll hear you cry.

Well some things are so obvious we are wont to overlook them, and I contend that;

The belief that we are better than murders. Demonstrably so, because we don’t go around chopping bits of people without regard for their wishes simply because we disapprove of their thoughts/actions/looks/what have you,

Is one of those beliefs we take for granted. I know I do.

Now were we to start harvesting kidneys and such from lifers we would be eroding the basis of that belief.

Not only by descending to around their level.

But, and this is possibly even more corrosive to our sense of wellbeing, by denying them a chance, to donate their organs as an act of recompense, by the refusal of which they do so much to secure us in our sense of superiority.

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Wouldn't taking anything (even a blood "donation") from an unwilling participant

constitute a violation of the Hippocratic Oath? What about the cruelty of making

medical professionals go against the very ethical beliefs that keep them in practice?

[qoute] So if ever YOU need a kidney (one that fits) you would be glad to get one, even from a prisoner

Would you willingly go under the knife of any surgeon that could take such a

callous disregard to viewing any patient under his/her care?

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