Gigger Hertz

Pentium Pro-blems Redux

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All of this has me thinking that if we keep buying new systems everytime we have a problem with them the whole world will beciome a computer junk yard. A world covered by junk computers is not worth it. There are 'old' supercomputers still in use by universities every where, becuase they work very well and they are paid for by now. Think about it....

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Of course they do. Lots of places use old mainframes, pentiums and other equipment most people consider obsolete. They continue to use them because it is very expensive to replace a machine that does a partular job satisfactorily with a new machine that would do the same job just as well. It doesn't prove that Pentium Pro's are better then newer computers, it simply suggests that the job they are doing doesn't need to be replaced with a faster machine.

The choice companies make by keeping their old pentium pro servers and not replacing them with new ones is one based on economics, not by CPU choice. This does not prove that the Pentium Pro are better/worse then other intel CPUs.

All this is what I was saying. Also there is nothing wrong with a pet project and there is also nothing wrong with being faithful to a perfectly good computer.

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There certainly are many PPros in use around the world, I'm sure. But you still aren't listening, TrintonAzaleth. (I hate to say it, but you're beginning to sound like Gigger Hertz himself.)

The PPro CPU was a very good processor in its time. Agreed. They still perform their intended functions as well as they did when they were new. Agreed. They are very efficient per clock cycle, and have been well matched in terms of cache, surrounding chipset, etc. Agreed.

But at some point, it becomes pointless to keep throwing money at them. If your PPro machine is not doing the things you expect it to do, it's time for an upgrade.

Example. I used to have a Tandy 80286-based computer, with an 8-Mhz processor, optional floating-point add-on chip, 640KB of RAM ("640K should be enough for everybody" - William Gates :rolleyes:), 8-bit ISA full-length expansion card with a 20MB hard drive mounted on it, and a proprietary 16-color graphics subsystem. It was probably one of the best systems available at the time (and it carried a price tag to match). Easily a better system than even a run-of-the-mill 12-Mhz 286-based IBM-brand system. Now pretend I want to be able to have a WebCam chat with my friend in Australia. Should I spend $10,000 getting 128MB of RAM soldered onto the motherboard in place of the 640K chips? Should I upgrade the hard drive to a multi-gigabyte unit with seek times somewhat lower than 120ms? Should I stick in an 8-bit ISA-compatible Radeon, custom-made for me by ATi? What about the requisite USB ports? (Oh, since serial ports are fast enough for webcam video, we should be petitioning Logitech to make a 9-pin serial version of their USB webcams. Plug 'N Play Schmug 'N Schmray!) Of course, I'll need gigabit-Ethernet compatibility too...

Or, I could buy a new system that will cost a fraction of what's involved in the above scenario, and be better suited to its intended tasks than the ol' Tandy 286 ever could be. As good as the Tandy was, and as well as it ran WordPerfect 5.1 in its day, it just isn't worth upgrading anymore. Hence, it has found a place in my old high school: it is used as a lab machine for a class which teaches computer hardware basics -- they program basic drivers for simple hardware connected via the parallel port.

Sorry for the long post. I know Gigger Hertz probably won't read it anyway. He'll just re-iterate how efficient his PPros are, and how they are still in use today, and probably throw in some new bit of computer "advice" he picked up from a telephone psychic yesterday -- like how dedicated FPUs are better than CPUs, since their model numbers are higher (80x87 vs. 80x86). Don't follow that path, please, TrintonAzaleth.

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This whole unfortunate set of circumstances in this topic has me thinking that there is a moral issue eating away at us all about what we want... what we need from life.. how we treat others... what we believe is good... what is bad.. etc. We are the masters of computers no matter how ‘old’ they may seem or no matter whole bad they may seem, we are still their masters. Let's be honest here. What do you believe? What do I believe? What do we ALL believe? Do I believe that God exists? I could say yes easily enough but would I mean it? Given what I have experienced, does the evidence support that God exists? Yes. The whole of creation begs the existence of a creator. So I believe in God. Do I believe in Heaven and Hell? It is reasonable to assume there is some sort of afterlife for otherwise life doesn't really have any purpose or would it? If there is no afterlife, there are no eternal penalties other than being banished from existence. Do I believe that there is an afterlife? Should I believe this? Should you? One could attempt to argue that without an afterlife all would be forgotten and every thing would be pointless, but since God exists he would not forget. Why should we live forever? Because we are not a normal creation. We as people have the breath of God in us. As God's creation we are accountable eternally for what we do, becuase we are made in the image of God. If I believe we are accountable should I not believe God made a way for me to escape from punishment in eternity? If I assume that it is reasonable to give a punishment for eternity, then why should I assume that God would provide a way out? If God can do that can't he also just let my sins go unpunished? How is it that someone else can take my place? Could this happen in the real world? Is it right for someone other than the one who committed a wrong to pay for the crime? Doesn't committing a wrong demand that the one who did it pay for it? It seems to me that certainly God does not need to let me have a way to be free from my sins. It is obvious that everyone sins and everyone must pay eternally. Does this make any sense? What good is a creation of people in God's image if they all end up in hell? Why should any of the creation be let into heaven? It seems there must be a way to get into heaven. If there is no heaven, doesn't that mean that punishment is meaningless? What is the motivation to do what is right? Is it in order to get into heaven? What if there was a curve? People will not do what is right, unless they have some hope. You should do what is right. God will allowed us all to now go down the path towards truth and righteousness. Your desires can now change if you think about it long and hard. The reasons to do what is the right things can now be understood.

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...

It seems there must be a way to get into heaven.

...

So, you're saying that we can get into heaven by spending $700 to upgrade Pentium Pro systems in order to make them slightly faster than they were before?

Write this down, people.

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So, you're saying that we can get into heaven by spending $700 to upgrade Pentium Pro systems in order to make them slightly faster than they were before?

Maybe it could be a step in the right direction. Doing the right thing you know is sometimes a bit painful. 700 $ is a lot of money to someone that is unmployed, but that does not apply here... what applies here is doing the Right thing. I doubt Gigger Hertz is unemployed

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Of course they do.

The choice companies make by keeping their old pentium pro servers and not replacing them with new ones is one based on economics, not by CPU choice. This does not prove that the Pentium Pro are better/worse then other intel CPUs.

All this is what I was saying. Also there is nothing wrong with a pet project and there is also nothing wrong with being faithful to a perfectly good computer.

Dropping the several times the price of a far superior ebay sourced equivalent on it, strikes me as being obsessive.

greg

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but those are just the ones your customers take back to you, right?  wouldn't some of them call samsung themselves?

Nope.

Warranties don't work like that (bar a few exceptional products, such as printers). The usual procedure is that warranty claims (motherboards, HDDs, monitors, whatever) must go back up the distribution chain. You bring it back to me, I send it to the wholesaler, the wholesaler sends it to the importer or manufacturer, and so on. In general, you can't have a product serviced direct unless there are special circumstances.

For example, a few years ago one of the major Seagate distributors in Oz went belly up. We had perhaps a thousand of Seagate drives in service and under warranty, all sourced through Agate. So I called Seagate and they said I had two choices:

(a): Deal direct with the factory.

(B) Pay a handling fee for each RMA drive and go through the other distributor (Achieva).

Seeing as the Seagate factory is in Singapore and I'm in Australia, it was easier and probably cheaper to pay $22 a drive and RMA them through Achieva. (They send them to Singapore and, eventually, Seagate replace them.) After a while, though, I stopped doing that, as the refurb drives Seagate sends back are complete pox. I haven't calculaed the failure rate of Seagate U Series refurbs, but it is way over 50%. So after a while I just started throwing them away.

WD refurbs, BTW, are little better.

But in any case, even if that were not the situation, everyone would come back through us anyway. It's a small town, and the way small town people see things, if I sold it, it's my responsibility to get it fixed.

In fact, thats the way I see it too.

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Given what I have experienced, does the evidence support that God exists? Yes. The whole of creation begs the existence of a creator. So I believe in God.

LOL... This is too good to be true...

As God's creation we are accountable eternally for what we do, becuase we are made in the image of God...

Well then, may God spank your naughty ass for eternity!

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You've been seduced by the computer industries marketing lies to its consumers. Most peoples' needs were met with 400 MHz Pentium II or 500 MHz Pentium III system.

...which is why I still use a P2-400 for quite a few things...so clearly your assumption that I've been seduced by Intel & Co. is completely and totally baseless. I don't disagree with you that the vast majority of people could probably do just great with a 400-500 mhz processor, but I DO disagree with you that seven hundred dollars to upgrade a dual p266 system is worthwhile.

There is no reason a non-professional needs the power in a Pentium 4, let alone the Pentium Extreme. I know better, and know that I can be happy with two 266 MHz/1MB Pentium Pros.

Fine, then why waste seven hundred dollars making them work as you want them to when you could have picked up an extremely efficient PIII tulatin core with a very stable 815 motherboard for far less? The system would draw less power, have more processing power by a LONG shot, and you wouldn't even come near $700 on that upgrade.

All I do is MS Office-type work and listen to MP3s sometimes. I am not a gamer and I do not simulate nuclear explosions.

Again, why in God's name would you spend seven hundred bucks on your computer if this is the case? I can understand pet project, but you're trying to haggle with me as though this was practical or pragmatic, when it just isn't.

The same things applies to suckers buying Apple's new dual 2.0 GHz Power Mac G5s. Who on Earth thought that any user needed two IBM mainframe chips in their Mac? No one, they were just selling what they had led consumers to believe they needed. Yeah, like I need a Corvette to get to work every day.

Yeah, and slapping a turbocharger in a Geo Metro is equally pragmatic. :rolleyes:

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You've been seduced by the computer industries marketing lies to its consumers. Most peoples' needs were met with 400 MHz Pentium II or 500 MHz Pentium III system.

...which is why I still use a P2-400 for quite a few things...so clearly your assumption that I've been seduced by Intel & Co. is completely and totally baseless. I don't disagree with you that the vast majority of people could probably do just great with a 400-500 mhz processor, but I DO disagree with you that seven hundred dollars to upgrade a dual p266 system is worthwhile.

There is no reason a non-professional needs the power in a Pentium 4, let alone the Pentium Extreme. I know better, and know that I can be happy with two 266 MHz/1MB Pentium Pros.

Fine, then why waste seven hundred dollars making them work as you want them to when you could have picked up an extremely efficient PIII tulatin core with a very stable 815 motherboard for far less? The system would draw less power, have more processing power by a LONG shot, and you wouldn't even come near $700 on that upgrade.

All I do is MS Office-type work and listen to MP3s sometimes. I am not a gamer and I do not simulate nuclear explosions.

Again, why in God's name would you spend seven hundred bucks on your computer if this is the case? I can understand pet project, but you're trying to haggle with me as though this was practical or pragmatic, when it just isn't.

The same things applies to suckers buying Apple's new dual 2.0 GHz Power Mac G5s. Who on Earth thought that any user needed two IBM mainframe chips in their Mac? No one, they were just selling what they had led consumers to believe they needed. Yeah, like I need a Corvette to get to work every day.

Yeah, and slapping a turbocharger in a Geo Metro is equally pragmatic. :rolleyes:

Look, if you want to go out and buy every latest trend that Intel and friends throws your way, go ahead. One year it's MMX, the next it's HyperThreading. Why instead of making up new garbage can't they refine the tech they have? Windows could be 100x faster if instead of feature-bloating Microsoft optimized their code. I understand that maybe I could get "faster" processors or "better" performance, but that's not the principle that I'm striving to improve upon. My ideal is to push the technology that I have as far as it can go, instead of abandoning it for some new-fangled gimmick, whether it costs me $7 or $7,000.

Is this so hard to understnad?

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First off, please stop quoting whole posts.

One year it's MMX, the next it's HyperThreading. Why instead of making up new garbage can't they refine the tech they have?

Multimedia extensions to x86 and SMT are refinements. MMX increased DCT by over 30%. SMT buys the same amount for applications that fit certain criteria (are optimized for SMT, and are compiled with a compiler that was made for SMT).

Windows could be 100x faster if instead of feature-bloating Microsoft optimized their code.

Windows code is optimized, some of it using compiler optimizations, some through revisiona in the code. You ever notice how service packs replace the majority of a base system?

I understand that maybe I could get "faster" processors or "better" performance, but that's not the principle that I'm striving to improve upon. My ideal is to push the technology that I have as far as it can go, instead of abandoning it for some new-fangled gimmick, whether it costs me $7 or $7,000.

Pushing existing hardware faster is great as long as it is less expensive than buying new hardware (or new hardware is not available for replacement, like in a satalite or something).

Is this so hard to understnad?
No, we understand completely.

Thank you for your time,

Frank Russo

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My two cents! I hate to be a butt, but with Pentium Pro system like that I would definitly put it to use! ;) Time server or maybe if I could overclock it a bit make it a DHCP server :D If the Pentium Pro system is your pet project, I would say that you are done. Looks like you got it maxed out :) Might as well sell it so you can start your new pet project. I'd buy it from you, but one of my friends offered me a Quad 200Mhz Pentium Pro system with 2Gig of ram for free. I didn't take him up on the offer! I will not explain why, most of the people here already know why!

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Look, if you want to go out and buy every latest trend that Intel and friends throws your way, go ahead. One year it's MMX, the next it's HyperThreading. Why instead of making up new garbage can't they refine the tech they have? Windows could be 100x faster if instead of feature-bloating Microsoft optimized their code. I understand that maybe I could get "faster" processors or "better" performance, but that's not the principle that I'm striving to improve upon. My ideal is to push the technology that I have as far as it can go, instead of abandoning it for some new-fangled gimmick, whether it costs me $7 or $7,000.

Is this so hard to understnad?

The problem is that windows 2000/XP IS as slow as it is, and bitching and complaining about it here isn't going to change that. FreeBSD/Linux, once you throw enough software to reach the same level of functionality as a window's machine is no better.

I am perfectly content with the speed of 2000/XP as they are. As someone who does know how software is built, it is not easy to just go and make software 100x faster. Software, especially complex software like windows, has to be maintainable and not hideously expensive to build. The price we pay for that is reduced performance on old hardware.

For once, hardware is finally fast enough that most software developers can focus solely on the user's needs, and not on the computers needs.

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I will be very interested to see what results from these megacluster super-computers once they run the 2.6 kernel.

Mmmmmmm Megacluster supercomputers.... Drool...................

Well, I can take refuge in the fact that I am not aroused by fast computers. Yet.

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Gigger-

While I DO understand your 'Pet Project', and many others probably understand it as well, I think we just don't understand how you could spend $700 on an old machine like that. While 'Pet Projects' are nice, there is usually a logical limit to how much should be spent on something that is going to ultimately be nothing more than a show-piece in the long run.

My 'pet project' was to get a modern (2.4.x) linux running on an IBM PS/2 55/SX (386/sx 16mhz, 4mb dram (16mb max), MCA bus, RLL/MFM 80mb Hard drive). I bought a MCA scsi card and 1gb scsi drive ($30), I got 16MB dram (free), external scsi cd-rom + cable ($20), and an MCA Ethernet card ($15). I got it working, and it is so friggin' slow it's unbelieveable. But it's cool, and that's what matters. This, I believe is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a pet project ($65), as it is MUCH less than i could get a new system for, and it is less than most new components (at least the ones i'd like to use).

Also, people are making fun of you because you seemingly know a lot of information about computers, but understand very little (i.e. the 64-bit / 72-bit bandwidth issue with your non-ECC / ECC ram). Perhaps you should work on that. People here are very knowledgeable, and for the most part, know exactly what they're talking about.

ELiTe

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My 'pet project' was to get a modern (2.4.x) linux running on an IBM PS/2 55/SX (386/sx 16mhz, 4mb dram (16mb max), MCA bus, RLL/MFM 80mb Hard drive). I bought a MCA scsi card and 1gb scsi drive ($30), I got 16MB dram (free), external scsi cd-rom + cable ($20), and an MCA Ethernet card ($15). I got it working, and it is so friggin' slow it's unbelieveable. But it's cool, and that's what matters. This, I believe is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a pet project ($65), as it is MUCH less than i could get a new system for, and it is less than most new components (at least the ones i'd like to use).

That is an awesome computer!!! I had a model 60 that I worked on for a while. Does it have the 2.88MB floppy drive?

Frank

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Also, people are making fun of you because you seemingly know a lot of information about computers, but understand very little (i.e. the 64-bit / 72-bit bandwidth issue with your non-ECC / ECC ram). Perhaps you should work on that. People here are very knowledgeable, and for the most part, know exactly what they're talking about.

ELiTe

And you know, I am still waiting on someone to explain to me how that 64/72-bit works. Apparently it doesn't mean extra bandwidth but you wouldn't know why from the way people are around here: "You're wrong, you're an idiot, etc." is all you get instead of someone stepping off of their high f*cking horse to try to set you straight.

Maybe "elite" is the problem on these boards.

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My two cents!  I hate to be a butt, but with  Pentium Pro system like that I would definitly put it to use! ;)  Time server or maybe if I could overclock it a bit make it a DHCP server :D    If the Pentium Pro system is your pet project, I would say that you are done.  Looks like you got it maxed out :)  Might as well sell it so you can start your new pet project.  I'd buy it from you, but one of my friends  offered me a Quad 200Mhz Pentium Pro system with 2Gig of ram for free.  I didn't take him up on the offer!  I will not explain why, most of the people here already know why!

Oh my god, is he still offering it? I'll take the thing!!!

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