Cavicchi

Is AMD Athlon XP 2600 better than P4 2.6?

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i was aslmost surprised I had no problem bumping the FSB on my Celery 2.0 from 100->133 and it still runs pretty cool ( below 50C) with stock cooling. A celery 2.6GHz still needs more cache though, but it would be great for DVD->DIVX conversion.

Maybe I'll try a 166MHz FSB here....

nope, had problems pushing the CPU past 2.8GHz while leaving the stock voltage... that's on a SIS chipset...

got it to POST at 150(x4)MHz FSB... at 165 (the max) it would not even get as far as slowing down the system fan to the normal 2100RPMs...

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I just spent an hour googling for the review I mentioned about the dual-xeon, dual-opteron, P4 review and I can't find it.  I even went through my history line-by-line, but obviously I read it at work so I'll look for it in my history there, tomorrow.

I haven't read the BAPCO reference you made, but honestly, I don't have any special fondness for Intel.  In fact, all the systems I've built or recommended in recent years have been AMD.  I hold stock in AMD! (Hmmm, on second thought, maybe that *has* influenced my feelings for them. :-) )

Well, it looks like I had you figured wrong. Please accept my apologies, but also please understand that in the context of this thread from a late-entering reader, your posts really did appear to lean towards Intel fanboyism, a point I was initially unsure of until the trademark insult (the braindead remark), followed by somewhat rude sounding sarcasm. The quotes listed from the Anandtech article appeared to be hand-picked at first, hence the BAPCO remark (where BAPCO hand picked Intel-favoring benchmarks and removed AMD-favoring ones--at least, that is what it looks like to me until they have some sort of official statement, which is unlikely at this point).

I can't really say much as I too often stoop to disrespectful remarks when posting, but I am glad yours were not intended that way.

In an effort to stay somewhat on topic:

For some reason, 1984.5MHz is where my setup decided the sweet spot was. A few MHz higher and I have an occasional (weekly) prime95 error or similar. I have a Barton 2500+, but suspect that the bottleneck is actually my early-revision Asus A7N8X motherboard. It is a 333-rated revision, and my overclocking has been limited to FSB increases (currently at 180.41MHz). I certainly don't want a new board for just a small and non-guaranteed OC increase, so that will wait until the next upgrade, likely an Athlon64 once the new socket is available. (Current Athlon64s are like the early Pentium-4's--unwie to buy as a new and incompatible socket is on its way shortly)

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So I guess my unbiased opinion would be that if the OP can afford a 3GHz, or better P4, I recommend it. If not, save a few bucks and go for the Athlon 2500 Barton -- which I'm using to enter this message.

Barton 2500+: $85.00

Intel P4 3.0C: $381.00

I dunno what your definition of a "few" bucks is, but.....damn. For two processors that I bet are consistently within 20% of one another (and I'd also bet the barn that 98% of people would be hard pressed to see the difference between the two processors in real world usage), I'm having a hard time figuring out the benefit of paying the additional 300%.

Not to knock either processor or company--they're both great chips--but I think the clear choice in terms of $$$ is AMD.

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I think a better comparison performance wise is this:

AMD Athlon Barton 2500: $85

Intel P4 2.6Ghz 800 w/HT: $211

Still in AMD's favor, but not so ridiculously huge a difference..the REAL reason that I used this comparison is that the rapidly falling prices of processors makes for extremely non-linear relationships between speed and price, thus Mr. Duck's comparison is fundamentally flawed from a mathematics point of view. When dealing with exponential curves, linear comparisons (such as cost) are only really valid across simlar X-coordinates (i.e., performance points). To do otherwise is simply poor analysis, IMHO.

If I looked at these prices (and roughly similar performance curves), I would ask ONE question: do I multitask enough to benefit from HyperThreading, and is that difference worth $126 to me?

Future Shock

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You have to add in the Motherboard price difference as well as the CPU. Just saying the CPU prices without motherboard costs (you need one for the other) doesn't give a fair comparison. Mind i'm not saying the Intel boards are cheap ;)

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Even the P4 1.7 is $20 more than the Athlon XP 2500+. The P4C 2.4 is about twice the price. No contest.

Even if a P4 will give better performance, it'll run hotter, and you can do more to quiet your system by getting the Athlon. Spend the savings on a decent motherboard with SATA and a KT600 or nForce 2 chipset (passively cooled), get a quiet HSF, acoustic damping foam, and maybe that Zalman heatsink for your graphics card. You'll have a much quieter system, and still come up less than the P4 solution.

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Even the P4 1.7 is $20 more than the Athlon XP 2500+. The P4C 2.4 is about twice the price. No contest.

Even if a P4 will give better performance, it'll run hotter, and you can do more to quiet your system by getting the Athlon. Spend the savings on a decent motherboard with SATA and a KT600 or nForce 2 chipset (passively cooled), get a quiet HSF, acoustic damping foam, and maybe that Zalman heatsink for your graphics card. You'll have a much quieter system, and still come up less than the P4 solution.

I believe the KT 600 supports SATA and the nforce 2 needs something additional, although the KT 600 was quoted to me at being $75 more.

As e-dawg has pointed out many times, heat is an enemy to creating a quiet system. He has recommended the AMD T-bred 1800 because of its very low heat output. I am somewhat concerned about the speed difference between the 1800 and Barton 2500+ and unsure if going down in speed is a wise decision even though less heat would mean less cooling and likely less noise. This is a very difficult decision for me. I have always opted to more speed. Come to think of it, it seems that every time I get a faster computer - I get a noisier computer.

However, I do like speed. The other question is how much of a speed difference I would notice between an AMD 1800 and 2500 considering my main use is internet activity with very light gaming such as a baseball game and a few chess programs?

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As you have no doubt surmised by now, my knowledge about computers is very limited. When you say the Antec 380 PSU in the Sonata can control the case fan, does that mean the case fan gets connected to the PSU but not with say the Seasonic Super Tornado 300 or Super Silencer? By the way, at silentPCReview the Super Tornado is rated best at low noise.

e-dawg, someone suggested to me that covering up the side holes would make things run hotter and thereby create more noise. Any thoughts? Seems kind of a crazy question when there will be more noise if you don't cover the holes anyway?

Antec also makes a SLK3700AMB case that got a very nice review at silentPCReview. In fact, it seemed to indicate that while it wasn't given the Antec Quiet designation, it was virtually just as quiet as the Sonata. And there doesn't appear to be those side holes when looking at the picture.

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the KT 600 was quoted to me at being $75 more.

I think the best thing you can do is find someone else to build the new computer

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the KT 600 was quoted to me at being $75 more.

I think the best thing you can do is find someone else to build the new computer

I agree. Problem is I live in the country and here in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania there aren't many choices or very savvy people knowing about building a quiet computer. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say there is absolutely no one who knows about building a quiet computer. Everyone I've called so far thinks all hard drives are the same regarding noise and that means the same noise level for a 60 Gb HDD or 180 GB HDD. And, I am told computers are noisy and like except it. These people have no concern for noise, and no knowledge for advising me on building a quiet computer. They say tell us what you want and we'll build it.

The hard drive recommended to me for quietness is the WD 80 GB with 8MB of cache. :rolleyes:

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the KT 600 was quoted to me at being $75 more.

I think the best thing you can do is find someone else to build the new computer

Sorry, looks like you were just referring to the price difference. Okay, I agree. I will search out someone else, although it could get worse. :(

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Like I said, the P4 pretty much spanks an Athlon-64, and it's as much as double the performance of an Athlon-32.

:blink:

That statement is terribly biased IMO.

Lets forget the 64bit Athlons for a sec (or take a newer review based on a slightly newer motherboard http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1901&p=12). To be honest, I wouldn't get an A64/FX right now anyway, for the price and the maturity of the motherboards.

Double the Athlon-32?? Err.. Even common sense would tell you otherwise.

To be honest, I think that the P4 3.2Ghz is overall faster than the XP3200+.

The XP3200 wins some, lose some, but I think it loses more than it wins.

I reckon that would scale the same way all the way down to the XP2600 vs the P4 2.6. In any case, neither will be significantly faster than the other overall.

<Edit: Okay, I've read your later replies, and it seems you've changed your stance a bit to reflect "the truth" a little bit more>

Regardless, if you are looking for a good deal, and don't mind some minor overclock, the XP2500+ would offer one of the best price/performance ratio for an AMD processor. The P4 2.4CGhz would be the equivalent if you go for an Intel platform. The later will be more expensive though, so that was my deciding factor for going for the XP2500 instead (I considered both options carefully).

<Edit: Gee, I guess I am just saying what everyone else were saying - guess I should've read the whole thread before hitting reply. Okay, my contribution then, would be, if you go for the AMD route, go with an Nforce2 - preferably Ultra>

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For $75, I'd go for the nForce 2 option. Did it have SATA? If not, you can probably get an SATA-capable nforce 2 board for less than the price of the KT600 quoted.

The Antec PSU can directly control the Sonata's case fan(s). To my knowledge, most other brands of PSU cannot. With a non-Antec PSU, you just plug the case fan(s) into a normal molex connector to run them at 12V, or into a motherboard fan header (which will monitor RPMs, and in some cases can control fan speed). You can use a fan with an integral thermal control, or a Zalman fanmate to permanently reduce the speed of the fan, or use a front panel fan control.

Have you already got the Super Tornado PSU?

I think the best thing you can do is find someone else to build the new computer

I'd love to help, but UK prices and trans-Atlantic shipping of the completed system would send the cost through the roof. Anyone else want to offer?

However, I do like speed. The other question is how much of a speed difference I would notice between an AMD 1800 and 2500 considering my main use is internet activity with very light gaming such as a baseball game and a few chess programs?

Frankly, what's the point of buying a new PC if it's going to be slower than your current P4 2.26? Assuming your enclosure makes it quiet enough for you.

What is it that makes you want the system to be faster? What feels slow when you use it?

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So I guess my unbiased opinion would be that if the OP can afford a 3GHz, or better P4, I recommend it. If not, save a few bucks and go for the Athlon 2500 Barton -- which I'm using to enter this message.

Barton 2500+: $85.00

Intel P4 3.0C: $381.00

I dunno what your definition of a "few" bucks is, but.....damn. For two processors that I bet are consistently within 20% of one another (and I'd also bet the barn that 98% of people would be hard pressed to see the difference between the two processors in real world usage), I'm having a hard time figuring out the benefit of paying the additional 300%.

Yeah, I guess that's pretty much the point. Everybody's idea of "a few bucks" is different. I have never, ever said that the Athlon wasn't the value leader. But as a former writer of reviews for a computer magazine, I can tell you that there is a big difference between "great value for the money," and "great."

In my case, (I just added this up this morning), I'm spending over $2,000 for the hardware for my new workstation -- and that's not counting Win XP, Microsoft Developer's Studio 2003 and SQL Server 2000. Paying $200 more for a faster CPU (the P4 3GHz will be $278 next week) is "a few dollars more."

-- Rick

So far:

Promise FastTrak 150 TX2 Plus Sata Raid controller

Asus P4C800-E mobo

WD 36GB Raptor x 2 (maybe soon to be three)

Plextor Premium CD-RW

Microsoft Win XP

Microsoft Dev Studio 2003

Microsoft SQL Server 2000

In the mail:

3DLabs VP760 Video card

To come:

512 MB x 2 PC-3200 Name brand memory

Intel P4C 3.0 (Maybe 3.2)

Antec P160 case

USB Floppy?

19" CRT monitor

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<Okay, I've read your later replies, and it seems you've changed your stance a bit to reflect "the truth" a little bit more>

Ah, but grasshopper, who defines the truth?

Regardless, if you are looking for a good deal ... the XP2500+ would offer one of the best price/performance ratio for an AMD processor.

I never once said that the AMD wasn't the better deal. But I already have an XP2500+. Now I want something better.

I'll bet half of you guys that are lecturing me on "price/performance" have got expensive stereos that aren't 20% better than one costing have the price. :-)

-- Rick

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Yes, but we're trying to advise Cavicchi on what to get - power consumption comes into his equation, making higher end CPUs less viable.

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HALF the price, dammit!

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for the info.

The KT600 motherboard should be chaeper than the nForce2 motherboard. It is also slightly slower in benchmarks.

Only buy the nForce2 if it is the '400' or '400 Ultra' version (often denoted as a v2 or revision2 board) This has slight bug fixes and proper support for 400Mhz over the original nForce2

You can also underclock the CPU if you want an even cooler computer.

Underclocking the 2500+ would make you system cooler. you also have the option of pumping th FSB up to 400Mhz (giving you a 3200+ CPU) if you ever the chessboard graphics ever get too complicated. I cannot guarentee the 3200+ though ;)

Buying a HeatSink and Fan combo that adjusts it speed to the temperature may also help noise. Or buying a Massive heatsink (like Thermalright SLK800/900's and a very quiet fan will still cool you CPU very well, not cheap mind)

Save the money buy the AMD. Get a decent Mouse and Keyboard....

Why not have a go a building it yourself.

There are plenty of guides, manuals are better, we are here and it easier than you think :D

.... +$200 on a $2000 system is still a lot of money to me for what you get....

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For $75, I'd go for the nForce 2 option. Did it have SATA? If not, you can probably get an SATA-capable nforce 2 board for less than the price of the KT600 quoted.

The nForce 2 does not come SATA ready from what I believe. When you figure in the cost of making it SATA compatible, then what's the point?

The Antec PSU can directly control the Sonata's case fan(s). To my knowledge, most other brands of PSU cannot. With a non-Antec PSU, you just plug the case fan(s) into a normal molex connector to run them at 12V, or into a motherboard fan header (which will monitor RPMs, and in some cases can control fan speed). You can use a fan with an integral thermal control, or a Zalman fanmate to permanently reduce the speed of the fan, or use a front panel fan control.

I like the auto feature of the Antec Sonata's PSU. I'm lazy. :)

Have you already got the Super Tornado PSU?

No.

However, I do like speed. The other question is how much of a speed difference I would notice between an AMD 1800 and 2500 considering my main use is internet activity with very light gaming such as a baseball game and a few chess programs?

Frankly, what's the point of buying a new PC if it's going to be slower than your current P4 2.26? Assuming your enclosure makes it quiet enough for you.

What is it that makes you want the system to be faster? What feels slow when you use it?

It's probably all psychological. I don't need more speed. I am giving my daughter the P4 2.26 and buying something for myself. Now, the acoustic custom built enclosure will not accept the Antec Sonata - Sonata is too wide. Nothing I can do, not even making my enclosure wider because of where it goes. So, I am on my own here trying to get something new that is going to provide relative quiet comparable to what I now have - doesn't have to be exact, just comparable.

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Yes, but we're trying to advise Cavicchi on what to get - power consumption comes into his equation, making higher end CPUs less viable.

Hi Spod, I appreciate you are trying to help. I wish old Rick would stop arguing and stick to the subject of what started this discussion.

Not sure what you mean by power consumption making higher end CPU's less viable unless you are referring to noise level?

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for the info.

The KT600 motherboard should be chaeper than the nForce2 motherboard.  It is also slightly slower in benchmarks.

Only buy the nForce2 if it is the '400' or '400 Ultra' version (often denoted as a v2 or revision2 board)  This has slight bug fixes and proper support for 400Mhz over the original nForce2

You can also underclock the CPU if you want an even cooler computer.

Underclocking the 2500+ would make you system cooler.  you also have the option of pumping th FSB up to 400Mhz (giving you a 3200+ CPU) if you ever the chessboard graphics ever get too complicated.  I cannot guarentee the 3200+ though ;)

Buying a HeatSink and Fan combo that adjusts it speed to the temperature may also help noise.  Or buying a Massive heatsink (like Thermalright SLK800/900's and a very quiet fan will still cool you CPU very well, not cheap mind)

I'm not into over-clocking or under-clocking.

How about the Asus P4C800-E which I believe comes with a manual'automatic control for the cpu fan? Sounds like a good idea.

The KT 600 comes ready for SATA.

I won't comment about the chessboard graphics. <_<

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I've seen osme pretty nifty graphcs in chess games :D

Go for the KT600 (as I say it should always be cheaper than the nForce2 for the same spec.)

Cannot help you on Intel side as I don't know them as well as others here.

As you don't want to overclock, I would go on price. As this is only for webbrowsing in the end.

As for the board doing the cooling sounds a good idea, although you can just buy a Fan that does that for you anyway. Personally I'd just get a decent quiet Heatsink&Fan in the first place.

Oh and manual, automatic control ???? Doesn't that sound fishy to you ?

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I've seen osme pretty nifty graphcs in chess games :D

Go for the KT600 (as I say it should always be cheaper than the nForce2 for the same spec.)

Cannot help you on Intel side as I don't know them as well as others here.

As you don't want to overclock, I would go on price.  As this is only for webbrowsing in the end.

As for the board doing the cooling sounds a good idea, although you can just buy a Fan that does that for you anyway.  Personally I'd just get a decent quiet Heatsink&Fan in the first place.

Oh and manual, automatic control ???? Doesn't that sound fishy to you ?

I haven't the foggiest idea what heatsink/fan combo would be best, or even among the best.

The manual/automatic fishy? No, not really. I assume it jusy gives you the choice to either make your own adjustment or do it automatically - sort of like the Antec 380 power supply included in the Antec Sonata case.

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When you say the Antec 380 PSU in the Sonata can control the case fan, does that mean the case fan gets connected to the PSU but not with say the Seasonic Super Tornado 300 or Super Silencer? By the way, at silentPCReview the Super Tornado is rated best at low noise.

You are correct on both counts. A unique feature of the Antec PSU's is their ability to control your case fans automatically. And the Super Tornado is a new PSU from Seasonic which I did not even know existed until now. I just visited SilentPCReview to read that review. I thought you were talking about the older SS-300FS model... So the Super Tornado 300 looks like an excellent choice... and you may even be able to do without your case fans entirely! Hmm.... that would be silent indeed!

e-dawg, someone suggested to me that covering up the side holes would make things run hotter and thereby create more noise. Any thoughts? Seems kind of a crazy question when there will be more noise if you don't cover the holes anyway?

Yes, sure it would reduce circulation slightly, but that's why I said you must have cool running components so you can block such holes and not worry about heat buildup inside.

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