waterdog

Proof of God's Existence

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"Religion istelf is a invention or mankind. A way of life is an invention of god. Religion is just what you can call it, that in itself is an invention of mankind."

Yes, religion is an invention of mankind.

No, a way of life is NOT an invention of god. It is something you create YOURSELF.

You decide for yourself how you will live.

Yes, religion is just what you can call it, that in itself is an invention of mankind.

I will print your words of wisdom here and hang it on the wall. :)

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The old testament was originally intended to scare the populous into total submission, 2000+ years ago. Lets face it, "if you don't follow these rules, you will not end up in paradise and will sleep for eternity".

Where'd you read that? How'd you find that out? And where'd you find that quote?

Actually the old testament was created through inspired men of god to set a foundation for humans, alot of it is laws, much is history, alot of it is warnings for us.

Hell was a place devised by man and the catholic church for scare tactics. The catholic faith is basically the roman empire encarnate. Emperor pontius pilot changed everything around to scare his peoples into submission, he even ordered that the unbelievers be killed. <~~ Christian like you think?? NOT...

Your right though it was devised by men but not the catholics... Its an ancient pagan religion that stated this. Forgot which one. But the Catholic church certainly do use it for that reason. Whoever said Pontious Pilot followed Jesus? He actually put Jesus on the stake... Where are you getting your history from? Maybe your thinking of Ceaser Augustus or another Ceaser...

Many of the early catholics revolted and formed thier own "religions" to escape death at the hands of catholic bastards. The cross that so many worship today is also a symbol of the roman empire's main form of execution.. <~ think about it

Many left yes to do so. Seems you dont like the catholic.. hehe... and actually the symbol for the cross is wrong. The word in hebrew doesnt in any way mean crossing of two pieces of wood together... Its sad though that people use the cross in their worship. Another falsity. They pray to it and use it at churches. I sure wouldnt want to do something wrong like that. Jesus even said not to bow down or give reverence to him but to god. And also the bible says that those making images or statues of anything and using the in worship is detestable to god.

There are many things that are wrong with the churches today. Almost none of them follow the bible in the way it was designed. No truth. If you are going to claim to follow it, do it right you know...

Many of these damn religions that we have today all have thier roots from catholic doctrin. They are all offsprings of a tyranical institution and are all unworthy of total faith, NONE of them are truly accurate and never will be! they, we, I, will never TRULY KNOW what pure accuracy reguarding faith really is or should be..

Yeah there are alot of sects. Obviously wrong. From the bibles standpoint. OH and Catholcism isnt a doctrine, the beliefs of them are. Wanna know why people will never know true accuracy regarding the bible? Becuase these men do not want people to read the bible and find the truths in it. They tell them no to read it, its far beyond your mental capability. Even the priests dont understand the bible, even though if they are teaching it they should.

How can one chose a spacific "religion" when they ALL fall short? They ALL say the other is wrong? They ALL condem the others to hell? <~~ no such place......

More murder is committed due to "religious" indifference's.. To divide and conquer... if you split humans into sectors they will fight each other, if you keep them undivided they will not..(most of them)

See and in this you will kow what the true religion is. See how murders are committed do to religious indeferences and even just by the people becuase of others things. They have no "true love" for their fellow man. The bible says not to kill at all. If they kill where's the truth? Also Jesus said "you will know my disciples if they have love amoung themselves" (as I already stated before, I guess you forgot). It doesnt say some of them, it doesnt say but if they kill becuase of good reasons or even bad reasons they are fine...

Its sooo stupid. Kinda like the Arch Diocsys in Boston letting Sexual Perverts stay in teaching people. So that they might even do it again. It doesnt make sense does it. The bible says to shun those type of people. Not to keep them around. But to help them to change, not give them priviledges.

Again the problem with the worlds religions dont match up with the bible. They are wrong. Thats how you can determine how a religion is right.

Those who choose a religion over pure faith (how they feel in thier heart) and follow every detail that is taught them are not following thier heart and therefore are following man's laws of that spacific religion..

Remember man is stupid. Mans laws are imperfect. The religions and the people in the religion follow customs such as christmas, easter, birthdays, even though the bible doesnt mention any of them and are from old ancient pagan religions. As well... divorce is forbidden in the bible except on the grounds of fornication. But people in these churches do so anyways. Figure that one out. lol....

See the problem I think you are finding is that you've studied religions and found out what they believed. The problem is that you need to stud the bible first and find a religion that fits the bible. Not vice versa. ITs the only way.

Keep looking its there? AS in many things, the answer is right under your nose. :D

All is good and well... but just make sure that your claim that there is no god is firm in your mind and you are %100 sure about it... your idea adds to many of the other populous that claim that there is no god becuase they can't see him... 100% remember.. just hope your right... just sincerely, in your heart, hope that your right... becuase if your not... what then?

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There are many historical texts that people take as fact. Are we to say those are wrong or anything written on the past is wrong becuase nobody alive now is here to tell about it?

The bible, if you study it instead of making claims thats its wrong, was comprised of many different books by many different writers. But the bible is harmonious in what it talks about. The Vindication of Gods name and the right for him to rule.

Scriptures from the Greek scriptures are quoted in the hebrew scriptures. As well as prophecy that has been fulfilled and is being fulfilled now. You gotta read the past posts too becuase you keep missing what I have already talked about.

Jesus lived for 33 years, died on Nisan 14, 33 ce...

Lets make an example. An book can be comprised of many different writers. Like a doctors publication on disease. But they confer to make sure they agree together about everything and make sure that they are in harmony with one another.

The writers of the bible did none of that. They didnt confer, or make sure of anything becuase really, they werent all alive at the same time. Yet the bible is harmonious!

i gotta go later...

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Hey, the bible says that "men who lay with men"... "are detestable to him" him meaning god. If they stop and repent, then they are fine. But untill then they aren't in an approved condition with Jehovah. And this isnt opinion of me. Thats the bible talking.

there are all sorts of silly quotes in the bible that people don't apply to their life (or other's lives). that one is totally abused to back up homophobia. why aren't you following the texts about animal sacrifice to the letter? it's in the bible.

Remember too age has nothing to do with wisdom.

the experience and temperment that brings about wisdom comes with age. it is not a requirement to be old, but the odds of an older person being more wise (at least in specific contexts) than a younger person are usually signifigant.

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i am making yet another thread because i have a goal of actually addressing this (and only this) question in it: what's the big deal about jesus dying 'for us'?

if i knew that there was a god (my father no less!) and a heaven, i would have no problem with dying for everyone's sins right now. brief physical pain followed by heaven. who cares?

furthermore, what did his dying accomplish if we're all punished for our sins (which exist) now?

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also, i'm inferring that there was some set of pre-existing sins for which we were all going to be punished. is that correct? (i'm not asking to lay judgement on the concept of that in general)

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It's no big deal at all. I'm don't care someone wanted to die for my sins - if someone is so stupid to do this then good luck to him. I didn't ask for it. In fact I find it quite arrogant that someone found it necessary to die because I'm born a sinner - a rather insulting opinion this someone had.

IMO someone didn't die because of our sins but because that someone didn't run fast enough from an occupying army.

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if i knew that there was a god (my father no less!) and a heaven, i would have no problem with dying for everyone's sins right now.  brief physical pain followed by heaven.  who cares?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Jesus didn't have any problem dying for everyone's sins. That's what he came for:

John 12:27“Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!”

He came to pay the price for the sins of the world, so that man could be restored to a right relationship with God. He laid down his life willingly.

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I'm not sure I understand the question. Jesus didn't have any problem dying for everyone's sins.

To explain you the point : is it needed to be a hero for dying crucified, paying the price for all mankind redemption and going to heaven after that ?

I am far from being a hero or a saint, but i would subscribe immediatly to the same end...

He came to pay the price for the sins of the world, so that man could be restored to a right relationship with God. He laid down his life willingly.

Actually, no matter what his goals might have been, i don't have personnally the feeling that things have run completely different in this world after Jesus came and died.

And, Honold, i have never been able too to understand what it was meaning to save us from our sins, as nothing has changed as it seems to me...

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it appears to be standard christian behavior to revere the fact that 'god gave us his only begotten son,' that 'he died for our sins,' etc. my contention is that what he did is something that i, or i think almost any other person would do. instant ticket to heaven + helping everyone in the world.

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Yeah there are alot of sects. Obviously wrong

Yes, only yours ir right. They pretend exactly the same and are sure of what they say, just like you are.

There are many books pretending to claim the truth. Why the hell should the bible be different ? How do you know it is God's speech ? Don't tell me : it is in the bible...

Anyway, many believers don't take the bible in the first degree like you are.

Even the priests dont understand the bible, even though if they are teaching it they should

Yes, they are all wrong and you are right. Far from being humble to me (but humility is always connected to tolerance, and you showed what was your positions about that).

They have no "true love" for their fellow man

Well, you didn't sound like you had too much love for homosexuals (i guess you have something you try to repress)

The bible says not to kill at all. If they kill where's the truth? Also Jesus said "you will know my disciples if they have love amoung themselves"

I cannot see much love amoung you, as i have already stated...

Again the problem with the worlds religions dont match up with the bible. They are wrong. Thats how you can determine how a religion is right.

Another great demonstration about what tolerance means huh

Remember man is stupid

some really are, definitely...

See the problem I think you are finding is that you've studied religions and found out what they believed. The problem is that you need to stud the bible first and find a religion that fits the bible. Not vice versa. ITs the only way.

And why should it be so ? Is it also in the bible ?

When we have heard one like you, we have heard them all. Actually, i really enjoy diversity of cultures and beliefs, and a world where everyone would share your vision would be simply some kind of hell to me...

Only a fanatic cannot see you don't need to believe in Jesus or in the bible to be a good person.

just sincerely, in your heart, hope that your right...  becuase if your not... what then?

Lol You are showing what a large part of your faith is founded on : fear.

I am pretty confident in the fact that, if there is a god, we will see i have done my best to do good. I really have no fear to face any God even if i didn't believed in him. Because, if there is an ultimate being, it won't obviously be like the moron you are presenting...

Should i really believe in god just in case it exists and will not forgive me not having believed ? lol stupid and childish...

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that was a very succinct and appreciable response to the second question!

how about the first?

Mr. Honold,

First of all please appreciate that I am answering this as a agnostic who is not now nor has ever been a Christian. Keeping that in mind I will make the following points.

I do not believe that our sins (or wrongs if you prefer) are forgiven, despite Christ's dying on the cross, unless the following conditions have been met;

1) We ask God and the parties we have harmed, if applicable, for forgiveness.

2) We are sincere in our asking for forgiveness.

3) We commit to trying not to repeat the offence.

4) Items one through three above eliminate a vast majority of people from qualifying for forgiveness of their sins.

As far as why Christ's sacrifice was a "big deal" as you say, I would point out the following;

1) He himself never sinned. Have you ever been punished for something someone else did? Ever willing volunteered to take the blame and punishment for someone else's wrong?

2) I disagree that his suffering was "brief". His suffering was I suspect both intense and extreme.

3) It is easy to say that any of us would the same. But when they get out the spikes to nail you to the cross you may just have second thoughts.

Also keep in mind that it was more of a sacrifice on God's part then it was on the part of Christ. Personally given the choice, I would rather be crucified myself than watch one of my sons be crucified. And this perhaps is the key reason why it was a "big deal". God made this sacrifice on our behalf - for us. He did so even though he needn't have as he owes us nothing. So I have a question for you Mr. Honold, why did God do this?

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it appears to be standard christian behavior to revere the fact that 'god gave us his only begotten son,' that 'he died for our sins,' etc.  my contention is that what he did is something that i, or i think almost any other person would do.  instant ticket to heaven + helping everyone in the world.

Yes perhaps, but would you volunteer your only son to be crucified for the sake of others?

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He himself never sinned. Have you ever been punished for something someone else did? Ever willing volunteered to take the blame and punishment for someone else's wrong?

i would mind doing this for a selection of people, but i wouldn't mind doing it for all people

I disagree that his suffering was "brief". His suffering was I suspect both intense and extreme.

no doubt it was extreme, but in comparison to eternity, any other metric of time could be considered brief.

It is easy to say that any of us would the same. But when they get out the spikes to nail you to the cross you may just have second thoughts.

i don't think it would be hard for a true believer. i don't have any second thoughts about raising a glass to my lips to take a drink, because i believe it will not cause me harm. suicide bombers are able to end their own lives, believing it will lead them to heaven. i see his crucifiction as receiving an extremely painful shot in order to end a disease for everyone. if he was really the son of god, he should have no doubt.

Personally given the choice, I would rather be crucified myself than watch one of my sons be crucified. And this perhaps is the key reason why it was a "big deal". God made this sacrifice on our behalf - for us...would you volunteer your only son to be crucified for the sake of others?

if i was god, i would be assured of the following:

- if i kill my child, he still goes to heaven, and doesn't really die at all

- if i kill my child, all others' debts are absolved

so, yes, i could easily wing my 9-month old son out the window of my jetta into oncoming traffic if i were god, and thus assured that he wouldn't actually die. it's not the same as a human losing their child.

So I have a question for you Mr. Honold, why did God do this?

as opposed to simply snapping his fingers to do it, i have no idea. i guess because the symbolism of loss would ring (as it has) in human ears.

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Mr. Honold,

I can only say that you are an extrodinary person. Have you done others good deeds such as you say you would do above that you would like to share with us?

Rosenberg

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like any other person, i have not (and will not) be presented with the opportunity to do something for every human on earth, much less something that large in a singular step

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i suppose one could count any ecological contribution as benefitting all people on earth, and that any time somebody walks instead of drives they have done something for every existing and future human. the results on such actions are still unable to be quantified.

i realize that you're (unfortunately) sardonically dancing around the fact that you think that i wouldn't be able to do such a thing, and are attempting to collect evidence in that vein to illustrate your 'point.' if you re-read my statements, you will find that i don't believe the task is difficult to decide upon or execute.

i think deciding upon and executing massively benefical deeds outside of that scope (e.g. starting a pro-eco charitable/action group) are much more difficult, so i don't think your implied line of reasoning has any basis here.

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one more thing, i also don't believe myself to be extraordinary in this respect; i would expect a strong majority of the world would do the same. if they are jesus, they have no doubts. if they are god, they have no doubts. once that is allayed, all you're considering is a finite amount of pain, and it seems pretty clear to me that it would be worth it.

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Its true. I have a reverential fear of displeasing god. No I dont hate the person themselves that is homosexual or what not... just what they are doing. Thats only founded by a bible basis. (you say, the bible isnt right)

I have already said why the bible is rock solid in authenticity. But as things go in this forum. You guys truly do not want to understand. (you say, I still have no proof)

IF the religion doesnt match up with the bible. Then yes they are wrong. Just like an employer wants a specific person for a job and if they dont have exactly the right qualifications they arent chosen. Simple as that. God will not continue to be tolerent of the worlds religions and even those that dont believe in him. Hey If i wasnt doing the laws of god, and someone told me I had to, I'd be defensive too...( then you say, tolerence, sounds like a evil and cruel god, how could he make me follow his laws, since we have free will?)

I am seriously not going to continue this circle. I have continued to state everything. If you read back instead of posting the same questions then I will certainly be happy to answer them.

(then you say, I dont have any questions that you can answer)

And again. You truly dont want the answer your given. Even though its based on fact. You might not like the fact. But that doesnt mean its wrong. (then you'll say, that doesnt mean they are right does it)

The problem is almost every religion is say they are based on the bible and arent truly. Like I said before, and I wont say it again. You have to find the religion that fits the bible, not vice versa... that is the only way.... we can't just take the bible as whatever... thats the problem with the worlds religions... I have already explained one thing of finding the true religion.... Wont say it again... its a waste of my time...

The thing you dont know is that, I have studied both sides of this equation. I have found the bible to be correct and founded on truth.

You still havent showed me why god doesnt exist.

oh and all the things inside the ( ) are theoretical...

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Mr. Honold,

I am not attempting to collect anything. My question was quite sincere. And of course you have answered it for which I thank you. However with all due respect, I don't think your ecological contributions to mankind are comparable to what it is the Bible says Christ did for mankind (if true).

Keep in mind as well that it is said that Christ did suffer die in the physical sense despite being the son of God - he was also a man. Were this not so there would have no point to him having been crucified. I believe the Bible also says that he decended into Hell for three days before he arose from the dead.

Though Christ knew he would arise from the dead, I do not think he looked forward to being crucified. Nor do I think those who are suicide bombers look forward to exploding. I suspect all of these people had just as great an instict for self preservation as all men do.

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However with all due respect, I don't think your ecological contributions to mankind are comparable to what it is the Bible says Christ did for mankind (if true).

well i don't think anything anybody has done is comparable to what christ allegedly did for mankind, so if that was your 'sincere' question, i have to doubt your sincerity.

i was only stating the big about ecological contributions before somebody tried to loophole it and say that it was possible for one person to affect all people.

Though Christ knew he would arise from the dead, I do not think he looked forward to being crucified. Nor do I think those who are suicide bombers look forward to exploding. I suspect all of these people had just as great an instict for self preservation as all men do.

i totally agree, and never meant to imply that i thought it would be pleasant.

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