waterdog

Proof of God's Existence

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See the problem is God has given signs or miracles a loooong time ago...

Just becuase people don't see them today, even though prophecy is taking place right in our day. They deny there's a god.

Historically the bible's correct. Along with prophecy, science.

Many people actually claim to be Jesus. And many people believe that Jesus is God. Although they arent the same.

And the bible says that the earth was a circle or sphere or round. Not flat. Many years before Columbus sailed the stupid ocean blue...

And anyways people are sooo hard in their thinking that god isnt real that even if he did give a blatent sign they wouldnt believe it. Thinking its something different.

For this I know becuase god is has giving prophecy for our days. But people still don't believe. Figure that one out.

Many people view it as "Religion" as a person that loves god and cherishes the bible, its a way of life. Not just a sunday ritual.

There are certainly many skeptics here. F_VO why do you believe that god doesnt exist? Why is sooo hard to comprehend? Why is sooo hard to realize that there is a being that has the right to rule over your life?

The problem with you f_vo is that you throw all the reasoning and proof out the window.

But I am not going to argue the fact of Jehovah God.

If you want proof I'll give it to you. But god will not directly talk to you just to make you believe. He has given us a way to find out about him. Its our job to do so and to follow what he says.

Ewelsh, I dont know who you are talking to but thats Humans that are at least 6000 years old not the earth. The earth in fact could be possibly many millions of years old.

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My view on religion:

It was once a way of explaining the unexplainable.

It is currently a good way of passing along good morals.

Most religious texts give insight into historical events.

Most religious storys are to provide a moral. The biblical stories and Aesop's fables aren't that far apart.

As long as they aren't taken to extremes, religion CAN be a good thing.

Taken to extremes, religion is VERY bad.

What really sold me on the bible having the complete inability to be taken literally? Adam and eve had three kids, one killed another, so he was exiled and he went to the TOWN (yes, a town with more people than there should've been existing) of Nod.

Why I think the bible can be used for historical insight: Noah's flood was a fairly accurate description of what it would've been like to be in the area that the Black Sea currently occupies when they Medditeranian sea broke a natural dam. This kind of perspective doesn't happen often.

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Actually he was sent to a place that GOD called Nod... not a place man called nod.... or as God said its called the Land of Fugitiveness or NOD...

Genesis 4:8-16

"8 After that Cain said to Abel his brother: [“Let us go over into the field.”] So it came about that while they were in the field Cain proceeded to assault Abel his brother and kill him. 9 Later on Jehovah said to Cain: “Where is Abel your brother?” and he said: “I do not know. Am I my brother’s guardian?” 10 At this he said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground. 11 And now you are cursed in banishment from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood at your hand. 12 When you cultivate the ground, it will not give you back its power. A wanderer and a fugitive you will become in the earth.” 13 At this Cain said to Jehovah: “My punishment for error is too great to carry. 14 Here you are actually driving me this day from off the surface of the ground, and from your face I shall be concealed; and I must become a wanderer and fugitive on the earth, and it is certain that anyone finding me will kill me.” 15 At this Jehovah said to him: “For that reason anyone killing Cain must suffer vengeance seven times.”

And so Jehovah set up a sign for Cain in order that no one finding him should strike him. 16 With that Cain went away from the face of Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Fugitiveness to the east of E´den."

IT was called a land not a town... a town would, yes, depict people. But a land doesnt.

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So say we've already proved the bible's true.

we haven't. proof, by nature, is irrefutable. a majority of the world still refutes the christian bible.

The bible brings out how god says he is the "alpha and the omega" in which I have already stated.

As humans our brains are just not powerful enough to comrehend that fact. Just as in the vastness of the universe is mind bogling.

and this is where your argument falls apart.

your 'intelligent creator' line of reasoning stated that any logical human being would think that if they found a functional clock, that somebody created it.

any logical human being would also then conclude that if they found a god, that somebody created it as well.

if your argument is that 'god has no creator,' it is every bit as logical to declare that 'life has no creator.' it is every bit as logical to say life always has been, and always will be.

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There are certainly many skeptics here. F_VO why do you believe that god doesnt exist? Why is sooo hard to comprehend? Why is sooo hard to realize that there is a being that has the right to rule over your life?

i'll speak for myself, but probably for him as well:

1) i don't believe god exists because i have no proof of his existence

2) it's sooo hard to comprehend because i have no proof. see #1.

3) it's sooo hard to realize that there is a being that has the right to rule over my life because a) he doesn't exist (see #1 and #2) and B) free will is a fundamental tenet of the bible. even if i did believe that the christian god existed in accordance with the bible, free will would prevent him from 'ruling over my life.'

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I almost wrote my usual, overly verbose, wishing it was erudite, reply, but a real conversation intervened.

What I will offer as a convincing a disproof as any proof so far offered is that despite my repeated, persistent, apparently incorrigible disobedience of scripture I am yet to have a close encounter with a lightning bolt.

Yadda yadda yadda afterlife, you say. well you can hold your breath if you like( you may even get there sooner) but I won’t.

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Sorry to mess up your train of thought..

Your belief is only relying on my belief. ITs only through disbelief that you have something.

Oh and Fool your wording was quite verbose and actually not quite erudite.

oh and there is no afterlife.

I am quite sad that many people don't believe in God. But thats what was prophesied.

Just a couple of great scriptures I love.

Psalm 49:10

"10 For he sees that even the wise ones die,

Together the stupid one and the unreasoning one perish,

And they must leave to others their means of maintenance."

Psalm 92:5-6

"5 How great your works are, O Jehovah!

Very deep your thoughts are.

 6 No unreasoning man himself can know [them],

And no one stupid can understand this."

I highly doubt that either of you have taken the time to study the bible deeply. If at all....

Just riddle off all of the dribble of highly esteemed men that you have read about in scientific books or just made up superflous assumptions about the world and space. Without actually taking to time and effort to research your answers.

You can disbelieve without proof of your disbelief, thats fine with me.

If you disagree without proof of your disagreement. I cannot continue. Its impossible to reason with someone unreasoning.

Oh and honold I like your thinking....

1) there is not god, no proof

2) no proof, there is no god

3)i dont want god ruling over me, even if he is

Honold, you sound educated on this subject :wacko:

Its illogical to think that we weren't created. And although its hard to comprehend, god has always been.

Its already been shown why everything was created... I am not going to keep saying it....

later

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I highly doubt that either of you have taken the time to study the bible deeply. If at all....

how much or how little i've read of the bible is irrelevant; i cannot be convinced of god's existence by simply reading text. that is not proof.

Just riddle off all of the dribble of highly esteemed men that you have read about in scientific books or just made up superflous assumptions about the world and space. Without actually taking to time and effort to research your answers.

i have quoted noone, and i have made no assumptions. i have not pretended to be able to explain existence, either, but i'm not going to default on anything just because it's beyond my understanding.

what you seem to have trouble understanding is that the idea of god always existing is as logical (or illogical) as the idea of life/matter always existing.

You can disbelieve without proof of your disbelief, thats fine with me.

my proof is self-evident. there is no tangible evidence that god exists. there is no tangible evidence that a flying purple elephant exists, either, and i will duly continue to deny its existence when challenged until i see one.

3)i dont want god ruling over me, even if he is

i never said i didn't want god ruling over me. i truly don't care. if god's been ruling over me all this time, it's truly been transparent.

if you continue to study the book on which you claim to be an expert, you'll find that the concept of free will defines that god will not 'rule over' anyone in this world.

Its illogical to think that we weren't created. And although its hard to comprehend, god has always been.

if it's illogical to think we weren't created, it is equally illogical to think god wasn't created. you are abandoning that fundamental logic as a rite of your belief, and then using it as circular 'proof'.

one could just as easily claim that life/matter always existed and always will.

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I can't resist to throw this url into this discussion B)

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there is no tangible evidence that a flying purple elephant exists

But I believe in flying purply elephants......I have found my faith!!!

And to think I didn't believe.....

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i never said i didn't want god ruling over me.  i truly don't care.  if god's been ruling over me all this time, it's truly been transparent.

As an agnostic, I believe that god (manifested as a flying purple elephant) truly doesn't care whether I believe or not. If I live in a moral way, she (the elephant) will be satisfied.

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I can't resist to throw this url into this discussion B)

ooo....thats fun.....

Deuteronomy, Chapter 23:1

He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

No balls? Go home...freak!

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I particularly like this site for the (long) list of contradictions... (here are 2, kind-of related to the discussions above: if you seek god will you find him? and can god be seen?) (and i will stop here to avoid trolling, but anyone thinking that the bible is the word of god have to see this site and think about all the contradictions and stupidities in the bible...)

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Hey thanks guys for replying to my little article. I am a little busy so I will give some quick replies to some people, and get more in depth a little later.Let me also make it clear that these views that I have are not new, there are many people in the world that have this kind of ideology. So anyway, let me reply:

Kickarse: Read this book by Elaine Pagels called "Beyond Belief", it goes into detail of the latests discovered writings, and what Jesus was really trying to teach. Also, it very well IS possible to make perfect robots.

Balding Ape: Yea, my views aren't revolutionary, many people know what I am talking about. You're right also that it would take a very long time to ever reach an automated world like I described.

ewelsh: no I am not Alex Chiu, and I have no idea who he is, but like I said, I didn't make this up, I am sure many people have these views. I will check out the website, thanks.

jtr1962: It's good to see that other people kind of think like I do. Yea, about the God part, I put that in there to try to let the creationist/religion people understand what I am talking about, so they can relate their views with mine.

f_vo: Yea, you're right, I just opened a whole nother can of worms, but hopefully some parts you guys found humorous.

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Actually from all accounts, if you've read them, he isnt a good guy at all. And actually he is behing all of that.

I guess that all depends on what you think of as "good" right? If you think that god = good, then sure, Satan sounds evil by definition, since he is against god. I prefer a less blind version of morality.

Of course, I don't really believe in god or satan, so what do I care?

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You are asking me to proof that "something that does not exist, does not exist" Andrew.

On the other hand if i cannot proof that "something does not exist, it exists....(easy way out), while it does not....

Hardly. Of course you can't prove a negative. I just said that if you deny the existance of god, it is up to you to make your case. However, should you fail to make your case convincingly, that does not mean the converse must be true. In other words, even if you are not able to prove the negative, it does not prove the positive. This is one reason I'm relatively agnostic.

Its impossible to reason with someone unreasoning.

You know, you're completely right.

If you want proof I'll give it to you. But god will not directly talk to you just to make you believe. He has given us a way to find out about him. Its our job to do so and to follow what he says.

I KNEW god was a woman! ;)

your 'intelligent creator' line of reasoning stated that any logical human being would think that if they found a functional clock, that somebody created it.

any logical human being would also then conclude that if they found a god, that somebody created it as well.

if your argument is that 'god has no creator,' it is every bit as logical to declare that 'life has no creator.' it is every bit as logical to say life always has been, and always will be.

honold's logic is irrefutable here. This is the generally accepted flaw in the creation from design argument.

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yeah so what do you care?

Anyways... He went against god. Defied him and his authority. And so he was ousted out of heaven. No body defy's god and gets away with it.

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Yeah... see one of the problems is that there are holes beyond belief in the persons "non-existing god" ideology....

Yet they seem to pick apart anything that could remotely be denied. Just becuase they want to be right.

See its a problem that you say god does not exist becuase I see no proof. I say you think that god doesnt exist becuase you refuse to look.

And it does have a lot to do with how little or how much you've read the BIBLE... If you haven't read a book how can you say that you refute what it says. IF you've only read a little of a book, and deny it, how are you educated in your decision?

I say you have gone more on blind reasoning then anything.

And also proof isnt by simply reading a text... there is life around us... everything really...

I seriously doubt as well that if life has always been, we'd be where we are as humans today... millions upon billions of years and we are this? common.... and it only takes a couple people to come up with a belief that robots can help humans in only a couple hundred years? pfft...

riiiiigggghhhhhttttt......

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what is it that you all believe that makes you doubtful of the Lord's existance?

Personnally, i am unable to see any intelligence behind the way Nature is working. Nature is all about "kill or be killed". In our world, good people don't often get as much benefits than the bad one, ie you don't get reward for your good manner that often, as much as you don't get punished for your bad manner that often.

Actually, Nature just doesn't care about justice. This is something e can see every day.

Also, in the way that lifeforms are, they are not designed to be optimized, which would the proof of some intelligent entity behind, but just designed in order to be able to reproduce ourself (we arrive to this by natural selection).

And in the catholic religion, the world of stinker e are living in is because Adam and Eve committed some bad stuff. Well, i find this as misericordious as putting someone in jail just because his grand-grand-grand father killed somebody.

I would say that it doesn't matter wether you believe in God or not as long as you are good ith your brotherhood. And about this, i noticed it had nothing to do with believing in God or not.

Although i don't believe in God, i respect those who do, as long as they judge me on the real effects of my behaviour (i do my best to be a good person, even if i am far from being a saint), and not on some ridiculous rituals (eating and drinking something at the church is just a symbolic way to be in communion, and i would blame anyone who tell me i am a bad person just because i don't do such things).

Last but not least, i consider sterile the idea that humans are perfect until they get corrupted by Satan or any evil spirit. We are the reflect of the world we live in, where violence increases your chances to survive. I think we are born violent, and we need to accept this in order to understand how it works and, finally, to get a chance to change it (and this is a lifetime work).

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What's a perfect machine?

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Yet they seem to pick apart anything that could remotely be denied. Just becuase they want to be right.

are you kidding? i want to be wrong. i would love to think that heaven and god exist, and i would have no problem living my life in that way. as it stands, when i die, i'm dead. that's all i believe. you think i wouldn't want to live forever, happily?

See its a problem that you say god does not exist becuase I see no proof. I say you think that god doesnt exist becuase you refuse to look.

i'm looking.

And it does have a lot to do with how little or how much you've read the BIBLE... If you haven't read a book how can you say that you refute what it says. IF you've only read a little of a book, and deny it, how are you educated in your decision?

have you read 'mein kamph'? no? how, then, can you deny that jews are the scum of the earth?

do you see how little sense that makes? i don't have to read a book in order to doubt what it says, especially if what i'm seeking is proof. _you cannot prove the existence of anything with a book_. i can't see god, i can't hear god, i can't touch god. until this happens, in the way that it happens with every other thing i know to exist - a friend, a dog, a rock, a telephone - i will not believe.

a book cannot produce _recordable_ sound, a book cannot produce _recordable_ vision, a book cannot produce _recordable_ tangibility. until a book is capable of those things (note the RECORDABLE requirement - i'm not asking for visions/noises/feelings from inside somebody's head), it won't prove anything.

it seems you would have us believe in god just because we can't explain why life exists. that is an asinine suggestions.

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Yet they seem to pick apart anything that could remotely be denied. Just becuase they want to be right.

Uh...NO. He introduced a logical inconsistency in your argument. If you cannot account for it, it invalidates the conclusion of your argument. This means that the premises of your argument do not support the conclusion. He's not "just trying to be right." He is proving that your argument isn't valid.

I say you think that god doesnt exist becuase you refuse to look.

You know, many fundamentalist Christians have said this to me. I refuse to "look" or "unharden my heart" or various other locutions that all mean the same thing: I should stop being so skeptical.

Don't you see that if we discard our skepticism to "find" or "look for" god, we are then discarding the very thing that allows us to judge proof? Any idiot can "find" god if they choose to ignore logic, reason, and skepticism.

And it does have a lot to do with how little or how much you've read the BIBLE... If you haven't read a book how can you say that you refute what it says. IF you've only read a little of a book, and deny it, how are you educated in your decision?

The status of the Bible as proof of god's existence is the same as that of any other historical document: it is not proof. I *have* read most of the Bible, and there is nothing I have seen that would constitute proof to someone who did not already believe, or was very disposed to believing. Most of the Bible is a recounting of history -- several rather narrow perspectives of it.

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I dont think that god views it that way....

Just being good isnt just what we are suppose to do.

But its up to you to live by his laws or not... he's not forcing anyone to live....

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This is quite annoying...

Anyways...

I am quite sorry you feel the way you do... That there is no god... that you have no hope for the future.

That you feel life is basically futile. IF you die so what right? Becuase we have no purpose? Let's live for the now cuz who knows whats going to happen....

Your right there are many books that are considered inspired writings.

None of which hold to the harmony, history, prophecy, and science in/of the bible.

Of couse the bible talks about history. Or else we wouldnt know when it was made or when it was talking about. This holds to helping prove its truth. But not only does it talk about history, but also guidelines for our lives.

But you know what, this is just a futile conversation. In no way am I going to change your thinking... Although I would love for all to come to a complete understanding of truth. As for people of god we need to be in an approved standing before him. By argueing with you, dont think I helped myself in any way.

So you don't want to die? Why do you think thats so?

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