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Proof of God's Existence

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And how is it silly that there would be a being that is higher in intelligence then us humans? One that created us? How is that silly?

Ironic Bible doesn't say G-d created man.

Bible says: "Gods created man. And they..."

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It would help if you posted the scripture...

Genesis 1:26-28

"26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.” 27 And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”"

He said "let us" referring to Jesus Chris in heaven, although his name then was Michael the Archangel. The bible say's GOD'S as in his image, not GODS as in made to be GODS or GODS plurel made them, its improper english to say "in God image he created them."

That one was simple...

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well, a logical person would also have to believe that something created god.  if we're dealing with abstractions on the level of 'god always existed and always will', one could just as easily say the same about matter and life itself.

still waiting

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I already explained how god is and has always been.

The only way it would be good enough is if god talked to you one on one.. and he wont do that.. He's already talked to mankind. Given us the bible. Its up to us to actually take advantage of it.

And yes for matter and life itself someone could say that... But if you logically and reasonably look at life and matter you would realize how its really harmonious.

Think of the food chain. Think that just happened. Hardly...

Just like the house. How in the world did it just happen. Like the house would you conclude that the tools that just made it just came about?

No...

What proof do YOU want? Want do you want GOD to give you as proof? Becuase life, matter, the bible, and just about everything is proof of that fact...

In fact many believed that Jesus wasn't God's son.. go figure...

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its improper english to say "in God image he created them."

very true. ;)

Seriously though, isn’t this getting just a tad circular?

Oh well, time for one more spin.

That the evolution of Homo Sapiens, and the conditions necessary for that evolution, are highly improbable is both true and irrelevant.

Yes, the odds against are one in an impressively large number, but, given that we are here, the probability that the needed sequence of events happened is one.

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What you are about to read will make absolute sense after you think deeply about it. This is long, but read it.

Let me finally put all of this to rest, and answer the ultimate question: Why are we here? First of all, the survival of the species as nature knows it, is to breed and have offspring, to propagate. For human beings, it is a bit different. The survival of our species depends ultimately on awareness and knowledge. We as humans do things through motivation. We are motivated to go to work because we know we will get money. Money in turn, leads to material things. We live in a materialistic, greedy world. Driven by money. If you were to imagine an automated robotic world, where no one would have to work, then what motivate us to do anything? We would seek spiritual enlightenment and knowledge. That is exactly what we should be doing. I’m not talking about God (I’ll get into that later) or religion, which have nothing to do with spirituality the way I define it. First of all, because of the fact that there are so many different kinds of religions, any one religion is no better than another. The Bible and other religious texts were to be used as guides to find God, and the true definition of God will come later, and it will all make sense.

We are all of course, part of the Earth and the Universe. The universe is experiencing itself THROUGH us. Basically, we are the ingenious tools created by the universe to become aware of itself. We were created so the universe could come to know itself, just as we all strive to know ourselves. We are here because we ARE the universe. That is also the reason as to why we are not perfect. Everything must be done by trial and error, because the Universe is learning as well. That is where evolution came in. The universe has now reached a state of awareness through human beings that I call spirituality. The entire universe is inside all of us, waiting to be discovered. That is what makes life so exciting. That is why little children are overflowing with joy when they discover something new. It is that good, tingly feeling you get when you grasp a concept you never understood before. Excitement leads to happiness, happiness leads to contentment.

When it says in the Bible to just let go and let God take over, what that really means is to let go of our fear, hatred, greed, envy, etc., inside OURSELVES, and transcend beyond those destructive things so that we (the universe) can grow. Basically what this means is that God IS the universe. As it says so many times in the Bible that we are a part of God, it really means: we are part of the universe. It makes sense if you think about it, because those tingly feelings we get are from awareness and knowledge, which comes from discovering ourselves and the world around us. So many people believe in God, they just don’t realize that God is the Universe, which is us. No wonder we can’t confirm nor deny if there is a God, because God (the universe) doesn’t even know ITSELF yet. Through learning about ourselves (the universe), we reach spiritual enlightenment. We are all learning to love ourselves and other beings on the planet, because we have this awareness and capacity to do so.

Unfortunately, most humans nowadays are not aware of the fact that seeking wealth and materialistic items is wrong. It is however, part of the trial and error process the universe has to go through in order to know itself. Like I said before, if we lived in an automated world with no hunger, overpopulation, money, or any other major problem, we would all seek to gain knowledge and enlightenment. That is why President Bush and all the leaders around the world need to spend billions of dollars in robotic research. We need to live in a world where we have absolutely nothing to do. We would then all become scientists, authors, poets, stoners, etc. There would be no need for anything else (except maybe doctors). The human race needs to have a mass awareness of this in order for us to continue as a species, otherwise, we are all doomed.

Just as the Universe is using us as tools for its self awareness, we too need to create tools to survive as a species. That will ultimately lead to OUR awareness of who we really are as humans, and why we are actually here. We would also need to create a database of every human in the world, with pictures, accessable by anyone. That would make us all in a sense “equal”. We would need to create only a couple hundred extremely large cities that towered miles into the sky, and give most of the land back to the animals so they could regenerate their species. We all know that we need a good ecosystem and food chain so that everyone lives in the end. So basically we are here (right now) to make robots. Only then will humans have no greed, because then it will not exist. Just remember, ALL major world problems on this earth can be traced to two things: Greed and Overpopulation. I am going to send this letter to President Bush, the UN secretary General Koffi Annan, and all other major world leaders. If we don’t start making robots, we are all dead. :(

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Wow are you off...

Holy mackeral... its a good thought but... not totally off...

By stating your opinion you have certainly shown most religions to be wrong by your views, even though you say that you dont disaprove or aprove of any religion.

First of all the universe in inanimate. Just as in asking water or a rock to create a living or breathing being. Or even more matter for that fact. That just about throws out the reasoning god is the universe. But in fact he created the universe. As vast as that may seem, its not impossible. For an intelligent creator to make us and everything around.

To go along with that, a life is more complex then just about anything.

I highly doubt if MAN made a robot to do things that man does it would help anything.

THink about it man is imperfect and will make imperfect machines. Where as God is perfect in everything he does. It was Adam and Eve's fault for our sin. Jesus came to give a sacrifice for our lives. For all those that believed in him and was faithful to God.

Evolution is not a fact its a theory. Man has been disproven sooo many times about this. Also, adaptation yes.

We were the only ones created with a need for spirituality, thought, being able to choose, etc.(well angels too) Unlike other animals. Animals are mainly on instinct. God put that instinct in them without having to go to schools and learn. Man is able to learn and keep learning.

THink about this. We use only about I think it was 7% of 1% of our brains on average and a highly intelligent person is around 10% of that 1%.

As humans we need a mass awareness that if we displease god we are pretty much dead in the long run. We as humans need to learn of what is required of us to be his servants. As servants that didnt do what the king wanted they were put to death.

God loves all his creation. The thing that is different with animals and us is that we have the chance to serve him. We have the chance of everlasting life. Unlike animals we have thought and freewill. Do the animals rule us? no... hardly.

Obviously its not a good thing that the worlds cities encroach on the animals habitats. Soon we will live in harmony with the animals and nature.

And our original purpose was to simply fill the earth and subdue it. Propogate and live in the world to the fullest. Learning forever.

There is not an entire universe inside of us and in no way does the bible bring out how we are part of god. Anywhere.

TRUE religion, not false, has everything to do with GOD. He created us and deserves our devotion.

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False religion has Satan behind it. Remember he has come to the earth to mislead the nations and the people. This is where the divisions come in about Jesus and death at the hands of tyrannical religious zealots. But for false religion, not true. Whoever professed to worship god in truth and has killed someone? Many religions in the world. So that should tell you something if you are searching for the truth. If someone even professes to be christian the bible brings out how we should love our neighbor, no matter who they are becuase we should be impartial just as god is impartial. So by loving our neighbor no matter who it is, should we kill anyone? So nevermind that the bible says killing is wrong.

You know, from most accounts, this Satan guy doesn't seem so bad. I mean, he hasn't destroyed entire cities, told his minions to rape and pillage, or demanded human sacrifices. He has encouraged science (if the Church can be believed), as well as a great many other philosophical pursuits, such as ethics without religion, metaphysics. He has encouraged people to think for themselves, to doubt.

He encourages us to experience worldly pleasures without guilt. He does not encourage us to place our faith in a god that allows bad things to happen to good people, including his own faithful. He encourages us to find what fulfillment we can here and now, rather than denial now for some nebulous promised future that seems to make no sense.

And I'm almost certain he was behind "Pirates of the Caribbean" rather than god, which makes him cool beyond belief. ;)

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The "argument from design" has been done to death. And you STILL haven't answered honold's question, which was (if I may paraphrase): god seems like a pretty complex, ordered thing. As such, god must have an intelligent designer. Who designed god?

It is undoubtedly impossible for everything to have been made by chance. Any truly logical or reasoning person can see this.

If you REALLY knew anything about logic, you would have already understood that this is spurious on its face. For several reasons:

1) "impossible" is pretty much reserved for things that are contradictions-in-terms (and even then, we have some doubts). "improbable" is possible. However, to judge probability, one must add up ALL (or damn near all) possible outcomes, and figure out which possibilities would lead to the event in question. Since we cannot do that in any reasonable manner (since we're not even sure what caused life on this planet to begin with, for example), we cannot understand which events would lead to life, even if we could speculate on all possibilities.

2) your argument is a phenomenological argument masquerading as logical. You find it "remotely improbable" or "impossible" that there was no intelligent designer for the universe, and base that on nothing but a FEELING. This is phenomenology, or "proof" based on the "experience" of something. It is not reason or logic upon which you rely, but feeling.

BTW, technically, if f_vo claims there is no god, it is his responsibility to prove it. However, if kickarse claims there is a god, it is also his responsibility to prove it. We doubters have it easy -- we can just sit around and poke holes in everyone else's argument. ;)

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Hard Drive, I have heard an almost identical (if not completely identical) view of the universe to that one...in a fantasy novel series (the Serpentwar Saga, by Raymond E. Feist). Odd.

RE robots: We have robots now. I have spoken with a couple of people who no longer have to work because robots now do their work for them, but they didn't seem very happy with their newfound leisure time.

First of all the universe in inanimate. Just as in asking water or a rock to create a living or breathing being. Or even more matter for that fact. That just about throws out the reasoning god is the universe. But in fact he created the universe. As vast as that may seem, its not impossible. For an intelligent creator to make us and everything around.

Shh...don't tell the pagans.

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Unfortunately, most humans nowadays are not aware of the fact that seeking wealth and materialistic items is wrong. It is however, part of the trial and error process the universe has to go through in order to know itself. Like I said before, if we lived in an automated world with no hunger, overpopulation, money, or any other major problem, we would all seek to gain knowledge and enlightenment.

Amazingly, I said almost the exact same thing some time back. We ultimately need to go to a robotic society where 100% of the drudge work is done by machines and there is no such thing as money. Each citizen would get a certain alotment of goods and living space. This allotment may very far exceed what most people have today. Certainly all the necessities and some luxuries would have to be provided for everyone. The control exerted by the upper classes to basically keep the lower classes in mindless jobs just to service their needs would no longer exist. In fact, there would likely no longer be separate distinct classes as there are today. With no material wants I doubt the population would be motivated to war, theft, or most other harmful group activities. People would be free to pursue a life of enlightenment, and the education system would have to be set up to train them for this. Contrary to what most people think, a job isn't necessary or even desireable in a society like this. I'm guessing if most people had a reasonably high standard of living provided by robots they wouldn't even want more. Greed to some extent is influenced by current advertising practices and the poor example set by affluent celebreties. Frankly, I get annoyed when I hear some sports figure reject a $10 million a year contract because he "needs to feed his family". What these people make in 3 months would last me my lifetime. Anyway, the end of greed would be another good thing. Concurrent with the implementation of robotics should be a mass program to eliminate all diseases and cancers, and to eliminate the genetic causes of aging. Death has always made life seem somewhat pointless, especially to those who don't believe in an afterlife. Eliminating death(or at least postponing it for a few thousand years or more) should be as important a goal as developing robots.

What would these millenia of enlightenment consist of? Well, there's a whole universe just waiting to be explored. There are things out there stranger than we could imagine. Our first common goal as a species after creating a robotic society should be to develop intersteller travel and make it available to everyone. You can spend literally lifetimes wandering aorund the universe, hopefully meeting other sentient species, seeing strange things. Extending lifetimes to thousands of years will only add to the possibilities. And then there is internal enlightenment. So much of what science has discovered, even today, is incomprehensible to the masses simply because they lack the intelligence. Using 100% of our brain capacity would dramatically alter mankind even with no evolutionary changes. As a bonus, a higher average intelligence would push out the final remnants of our base, materialistic society for good. Materialism is a product of low IQ coupled with misleading advertising. Getting people to lust after things that they don't really need and in many cases serve no purpose is not a good thing except for those who sell these goods. We should replace our society of things with a society of ideas.

If any of this post seems excessively idealistic so be it. I would rather raise people up then sink to their level. And thanks Hard Drive for starting an interesting topic. I think I would have titled the thread differently though because any time you have the words "God" or "religion" in a thread title some people won't even bother to read it.

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I'm guessing if most people had a reasonably high standard of living provided by robots they wouldn't even want more.

You are guessing wrong. There is a reason there are the Bill Gates, the Joseph Stalins, the Augustus Caesers, the Larry Ellisons, ad infinitum. Notice that most of the people with the highest standard of living are the ones pursuing even more wealth.

It's not some twisted marketing campaign that promotes materialism. It's not a culture of consumerism. These things are outgrowths, not causes (though I'm sure they contribute to a certain elevation of the cycle), of the true reason behind the Bill Gates of the world: humans want more. No matter how much we have, some of us will always want more. Some are content with what they get (though few of us would turn down the opportunity to have more, if we felt it was worth our effort -- what people feel is worth the effort varies from person to person), but the basic human drive has always been one of more, of better. And -- save a few rare exceptions -- more and better without much regard for the lot of unrelated others.

jtr, you're talking about altering the current state of human nature. As long as there are advantages to be had, there will be people seeking them. While I don't think it's impossible to alter the current state of human nature, it will never be done over a short period of time. More likely many hundreds or thousands of years, and even then it's a really long shot.

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Some are content with what they get (though few of us would turn down the opportunity to have more, if we felt it was worth our effort -- what people feel is worth the effort varies from person to person), but the basic human drive has always been one of more, of better.

People want more when some of their basic needs aren't being met, or if what they have can be improved upon. For example, suppose you don't have a TV. You would likely want one. If it's a small set you might want a bigger one. However, suppose robots could provide everyone with the best TV. And do the same for most other common needs. Past a point, you literally don't have the room(or time) for more material things. These people who have ten homes, or 60 cars, or 5 yachts, do they really, genuinely enjoy each and every one? I doubt it. It would be in their(and societies) best interests to keep one or two of their favorites and give away the rest. They are led(or rather misled) to believe that the more they have the happier they will be. The fact that the rich regularly turn to drugs to assuage their pain proves otherwise.

I think you underestimate the influence not only advertising but the culture of materialism in general have. People want more because they learn at an early age that more is better. There is no human instinct to accumulate as much as possible. Indeed, there have been enough instances in human history where materialism has been voluntary forsaken for me to think that we are inherently non-materialistic except for those things required to first meet our basic needs, and then to further our enlightenment. For example, much of the equipment I have isn't because I had a material desire to accumulate it for its own sake. Rather, like this computer I'm using they are tools that further my knowledge. Even my penchant for saving money isn't bought on by the desire to be rich or have many material things. Rather, the more I save the less I'm dependent upon employment to meet my material needs. Unfortunately, most of what is categorized as employement these days is to me repetitive, nonsensical work that does nothing to further my knowledge or abilities. Therefore, the more I save the more time I have for things I do enjoy. If I can eventually save enough I won't need to worry about working at all, giving me 100% of the time free to do as I see fit. What I'm really doing is buying time, which nowadays seems to be one of the most precious commodities.

And -- save a few rare exceptions -- more and better without much regard for the lot of unrelated others.

Sadly this is true, and in a nutshell you have hit upon the basic cause of most of our woes(war, crime, famine, pollution, environmental destruction).

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One thing is for sure.....this topic definitly will not put an end to "this god stuff".

Kickarse:"THink about it man is imperfect and will make imperfect machines".

I don't think so. Man certainly is imperfect, but capable to make perfect machines. If not now, then in a few years from now. On the other hand, man will always be imperfect.

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Actually from all accounts, if you've read them, he isnt a good guy at all. And actually he is behing all of that.

He encourages people to defy god.

Yeah you know your right he does make us go for the now. Sin and be happy, so what in the future if we aren't following what god says we'll die. At least were doing what we want and will only live for a little bit.

Hey if thats your wish... then do it.

Satan is god's enemy. I certainly wouldnt want anything to do with Satan, close or far....

later

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"Sin and be happy, so what in the future if we aren't following what god says we'll die."

We will die anyway.

"Satan is god's enemy. I certainly wouldnt want anything to do with Satan, close or far...."

I would prefer satan over god. At least he is not talking bullshit. But since i do not believe in god, i do not believe in satan either.

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The thing is first you have to prove the bible's truth and connonicty, historically accurate and scientifically accurate.

The bible has shown that it is.

I can post information but that would be a huge page of it.

Only if you want me to I will...

So say we've already proved the bible's true.

The bible brings out how god says he is the "alpha and the omega" in which I have already stated.

This shows he has no beginning or end. Just as in time has no beginning or end.

As humans our brains are just not powerful enough to comrehend that fact. Just as in the vastness of the universe is mind bogling.

We as humans always think of something having a start. I think thats one of the reasons it is so hard to comprehend this fact...

As doubters, in god's eyes, you dont aren't on god's side your on satans side. There is no middle ground.

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Has anything man made perfect? If so he would have done it by now....

Really everything boils down to god's laws....

The reason the world is so unbalanced. No one truly loves each other. Like "love of money is the root of all injerious things." Also, "love your neighbord as yourself." "let a man not kill his fellow." Simple yet concies laws god sets out for us. "Help those in need amoung us."

Also brings out how man is incapable of ruling themselves. We can see this from history. Wars, violence, famine, strife, even dieseases, deaths in the millions, all as a result of the governments trying to rule over mankind.

Our inclination as humans is to do what we want. No matter what it is.

How about humans doing what God wants of them to do? Certainly there are many doing that now. What if the whole world did it? If man was perfect it'd be possible. We aren't yet. So its not "probable."

Robots will not make things more easier. In fact robots would most likely make us more lazy. People will still not be truly happy.

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"BTW, technically, if f_vo claims there is no god, it is his responsibility to prove it"

You are asking me to proof that "something that does not exist, does not exist" Andrew.

On the other hand if i cannot proof that "something does not exist, it exists....(easy way out), while it does not....

Now if that god would give only ONE sign, i bet everyone in the world would believe in that god. That would be wonderful. Every Muslim would turn christian. In my book god might as well be superman or superwoman.

Centuries ago people believed the earth was flat. Nowadays in history class everybody has a good laugh when talking about this flat earth thing. But not when religion comes to mind. Unfortunately people still believe in something invented that long ago. God is the only invention from 2000 years ago that still stands.

If i would stand up claiming i was god, would you believe me Andrew? How many people where put in an institution claiming they where god?

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Nowadays in history class everybody has a good laugh when talking about this flat earth thing.

I'm not so sure about that. Young Earth creationists seem to think the world is 4000-6000 years old despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It might as well be flat, too - right?

This is the central problem in treating religion like science. Science is self-correcting. Theories proven to be incorrect are replaced with new theories. Science classes no longer teach the four bodily humors.

You can't prove god exists.

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Good for you.

Anyways....

THose that defy or disrespect him, God will deal with in his own time.

All I am doing is giving you an educated and informed decision for life.

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