supercaffeinated

.Net is blatant Java ripoff, half as fast...

Recommended Posts

Found this on theServerSide.com :

http://www.freeroller.net/page/cpurdy/20030516

Why MS bothered to change the "import" keyword to "using" is beyond me. The rest of C# is exact Java syntax, character for character.

What a bunch of losers. They talk about "innovation" like anyone at MS ever "invented" anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What a bunch of losers.

Talking of losers, M$ has just lost a 30$ milion deal to Linux with the city of Munich, although they offered 3mil. cheaper. They Munich officials selected Linux for strategic reason, and next year they will convert 14000 PCs to Linux :D . The people from SUSE compare this to the fall of the Berlin wall.

I guess inovation and good engineering is rewarded at the end after all. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why MS bothered to change the "import" keyword to "using" is beyond me.  The rest of C# is exact Java syntax, character for character.

probably to make c++ users feel at home - 'using namespace std'

they're trying to draw both java and c++ people into .net

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are quite a few languages that are C like in their syntax.

There are quite a few languages that are BASIC like in their syntax.

Would you agree that syntax development has pretty much matured?

Are there really any innovations in syntax?

The real innovation is being made in the libraries and runtimes, basically the framework.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As an MS employee, I shouldn't really comment on these matters. But as a person who has done .NET development, I feel that I have some leeway to give my opinion.

1: Speed. I have worked with J2EE, EJB and the JDK 1.3.1 mostly, and at the time, C#/.NET was definately faster for most operations. This was not necessarily because of a native speed difference, but because of code/compiler optimizations that could be done with the .NET SDK and VS.

2: Similarities. It was MS's intention to make C# similar to java in syntax and keywords. This is a no brainer.

3: The CLR. This is a good thing, as it allows you to use VC++, VB.NET, and C# all within the same project. The CLR/Framework is portable (Like JAVA) and has been ported to a number of platforms (most recently, Linux in the form of MONO)

4: Ease of use. VS.NET was a joy to use. The Enterprise Architect Visio forward engineering features were a joke, but the company I was with bought the Rational XDE (Forw/Reverse engineering product). My main problem with .NET was that it lacked certain necessary features (a serial port class) and I had to do a lot of system.interops with dllimport kernel32.dll to get things to work as expected.

5: Maturity. I have never seen an enterprise Java implementation that wasn't bleeding VC money all over the place. To me, Java with remain in a position where it is used for quick/dirty ad-hoc apps and medium sized web apps (like classmates.com) sitting on top of a decent app server (don't get me started on BEA Weblogic!!!). In contrast, the .NET platform seemed really nice and simple.

Don't get me wrong, I like Java. I only hope that they can better their product and make it feasible within the enterprise space. I wish the same to the .NET FW. Then again, I was never a big fan of any type of Virtual Machine.

Thank you for your time,

Frank Russo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maturity? Java has been around 3 times as long as .Net and has been ported to huge IBM and Solaris servers, to say nothing of Linux and windows machines. Websphere is on version 5... what version is .Net on? 1.1? And in typical MS fasion, the newer version is SLOWER than the first.

There are 10 times as many positions for J2EE and Java developers than there are for C# on www.dice.com :

http://www.theserverside.com/discussion/th...thread_id=18821

I don't know what you're talking about re: "bleeding VC money"..... Every major corporation that I know of doing "Enterprise Development" (that's what the first "E" in J2EE stands for) uses Java. Every one of the top 10 banks in the world. Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, Citicorp.... All the major Software vendors Oracle, IBM, SAP etc. .........*Except* Microsoft.

There are a few guys I've met who think that the .Net tools are cool. Yee Haw. Those same people really haven't given other tools much of a chance. They took a class or did a small project. But anyone who chooses .Net is making a horrible strategic decision. Any major company that has standards and does due dilligence in choosing those standards cannot possibly ignore the obvious advantages of Linux and Java on the server side. Muliple vendors at every level. Hardware, Operating System, VM, Application Server, development tools. Standards. Portability of knowledge as well as software. Developers who know java on Websphere should have little trouble writing for BEA or Oracle iAS. As much cannot be said for .NET developers. Linux admins who know Suse well will have little trouble adjusting to Redhat. Try setting a Windows admin down in front of Linux box for the first time. They're clueless.

There are so many Java IDEs out there, one of them has to make you happy. If you don't like something about the .Net tools, guess what? You're stuck with them.

Eclipse, Websphere Studio Application Developer (Eclipse), Oracle JDeveloper, Borland JBuilder, Sun's IDE (whatever it's called...), WebLogic..... The list goes on and on. They all interoperate.

Microsoft will rule the desktop sofware market for another 5-10 years, but unless they start competing by contributing to and *complying* with the standards they will end up like Apple in the hardware world. Relegated to a niche. They really already are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eclipse, Websphere Studio Application Developer (Eclipse), Oracle JDeveloper, Borland JBuilder, Sun's IDE (whatever it's called...), WebLogic.....  The list goes on and on.  They all interoperate.

Rational Rose was the only RAD/IDE that I actually liked. Unfortunately, their other products (Test, clearquest, etc) sucked so bad, I have put them (Rational) on my list of software that I will refuse to work with. Their liscensing is worse than SAP as well. I don't think that IBM knew what they were getting into when they bought them (they did buy them out, didn't they?)

Borland and Oracle IDE's suck arse out of the box. I have no experience with eclipse, so I won't comment.

Websphere (both IDE and APP server) seem nice and work well with Linux. It seems to be the most suitable for enterprise apps if run on IBM Servers, with DB2 on the backend, Tivoli for security, and with a world services support contract. This is what my recommendation has been to all J2EE shops that I have worked in. Nobody seemed to agree. I guess it's not JAVA that I hate, it's the JAVA developers.

Weblogic never impressed me (speaking of the app server). I only worked with version 5.0,5.1, and 6.0. It seemed too much like a pistachio medley (Weblogic front end, Oracle or whatever backend). There were numerous problems with jdbc in 5.X, and I bailed before I had a real chance to work with 6.X. Their licensing sucked as well (Holy crap!!! One of our live app servers just expired!!!)

Microsoft will rule the desktop sofware market for another 5-10 years

It is my opinion that it will not even take that long. With more and more countries going with linux, the OSS development rate will increase linearly, and adoption will increase exponentially. I have a feeling that MS will never release a new "major" OS after Win2K3. I am really a fan of the OSS philosiphy, and dislike working for software companies. The money pays the bills, but there is no tangible product that you can hold in your hands after the work is all done. I should write a book and call it "One Million Ways To Parse Text", cause that's all I seem to do.... Write a script that takes from SAP and puts it in this DB here. Convert these date values. Concatinate this, chomp that.

For a brief period of time, I got to work for NextRx building and programming for robitic hospital equipment ( http://www.nextRx.com ). It was the coolest job I've had since GE. How I miss actually doing stuff.

Oh well, enough shooting the sh1t. I'm not disagreeing with you supercaf, I'm just saying that I like .NET. It has a lot of potential and makes enterprise level RAD extremely easy.

Have a good one,

Frank Russo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad you have experience with the Java tools. I incorrectly assumed you were basing your decision without having really done any J2EE development. I've used Oracle's JDeveloper the most, and I'm used to it. I actually dislike all the Microsoft-like "wizards" in Websphere Studio, but they do make certain tasks easier, when they work.

I can't believe you would call Rose "RAD" however :) I'm more "RAD" with a text editor than I am with any of the other tools. The biggest advantage I get with the tools is the ability to define a workspace and a number of projects and compile an entire project with one click.

Websphere Studio has the built in "IBM Universal Testing Client" which I've started investigating, and looks like it should replace tools like Sitraka JProbe which I've used before. This sort of integration is very nice.

The worst thing I've encountered is that the ClearCase integration where I work slows down every IDE I use it with to a crawl. I think the problem is our ClearCase servers.

Microsoft does a good job catering to their developers with their tools and training materials... MSDN is great. The main problem I see is that when you look at what you're left with at the end of the project, it's just not as valuable IMHO as what you're left with when you build for J2EE on Linux. Being best-of-breed on an open standard says "this platform/product can stand the light of day". Thousands of organizations will compare our product to all the others in the space and have chosen ours. That's a powerful statement.

With every proprietary implementation Microsoft says, "we can't compete on an open playing field". We don't want to waste our time negotiating with our competitors to agree on standards. There are many upsides to this, it certainly allows MS to get products out the door quickly, but it's certainly not a feather in Microsoft's cap in many ways. Somewhat like going to war in Iraq without even checking with the UN. I know that MS does participate in some of the standards bodies... SOAP comes to mind.... W3C stuff related to IE.....But they always end up with a somewhat proprietary implementation. I can't think of a single MS API that is simply a pure 100% standards compliant thing. They ALWAYS throw in their twist on things to lure developers in and make their code ONLY run on the MS platform.

In the end this amounts to "Screwing your customer". It'll work for a while, but people wise-up to it after that. Over the long-term, MS are only screwing themselves.

I'll be the first to acknowledge however that the JCP has some problems. Like the way they killed the VM "Orthogonal Persistence" project in favor of JDO and CMP... This was clearly a selfish move on the part of the big Database vendors who run the JCP and whose products would be seriously in jeopardy if such a product were successful. Imagine, eliminating the object-relational mapping problem by making every Java object serialized.

Of course the RDBMS space is very mature, and it would be a shame to force all those RDBMS guys to become experts on Java Objects.

IBM claims to have taken over dominance of the RDBMS space, but they're neck-in-neck with Oracle. I see nothing wrong with a mixed-vendor setup, and everything wrong with a single-vendor setup. Pick best-of-breed in every space. Review your choice on the big decisions roughly every 5 years. That's my current philosopy.

Anyway, I'm glad we agree on most points. MS does many things well. The level of polish that they've achieved on the desktop is of great value to the entire world. At least it runs on commodity PC hardware and not some platform that's owned by Bill Gates. Maybe that's next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One questions for everyone: are you really suprised that .NET is a blatant Java ripoff? I mean, Microsoft had to do something with their now illegal JRE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now