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Toshiba 3TB Partitioned As All MBR?

Toshiba 3TB Partition MBR

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#1 Big_Al_C

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:29 PM

Hi, I run Windows 7 Pro SP-1 64-Bit with a ASRock P67 PRO3 (B3)

MoBo that has a UEFI BIOS.


I have:

EaseUS Partition Master Pro v9.2.2

EaseUS Partition Wizard Home v8.1.1

Acronis Disk Director 11 Home

Acronis True Image 2014


My C, D and E partitions are on a 120 GB NTFS SSD with a MBR.

I installed Windows 7 on a pre-partitioned SSD so no hidden

"System Partition".


I installed a Toshiba PH3200U-1I72 2TB HDD that is Advanced Format

512e and is properly "Aligned" using the Toshiba provided utility.


The PH3200U-1I72 is used as storage only on partitions

"F" thru "M" set as MBR and working perfectly as below:


F is      1.7 TB's Set As NTFS

G is        1 GB's Set As Fat32

H is        5 GB's Set As Fat32

I is        4 GB's Set As NTFS

J is       30 GB's Set As Fat32

K is       20 GB's Set As Fat32

L is       50 GB's Set As Fat32

M is       50 GB's Set As Fat32


I bought a Toshiba PH3300U-1I72 3TB HDD to replace the 2TB.

I know that 3TBers can't utilize the full capacity in MBR,

and must be set as GPT to do so.


I use Norton's Ghost weekly and it has issues with GPT.

I proceeded to contact various partitioning/cloning software

companies to see if their products could be used in place of

Ghost.


The exchange below is between TeraByte Unlimited and me:

TBU:

"If your new drive uses 4K sector sizes you
wouldn't need to have a GPT."

Me:

Please elaborate.

BTW, This is what my present Toshiba 2TB looks like (Near the bottom):

http://technet.micro...4(v=ws.10).aspx


TBU:

If you expose the 4K sector size and not the emulated

normal 512 byte sector size, you can use an MBR and

use the entire space (up to 16TiB).

0xFFFFFFFF*512=2,199,023,255,040
0xFFFFFFFF*4096=17,592,186,040,320


Me:

With what software and what is the procedure to go about

doing this?

Can it be done via a Bootable CD or must it be done in Windows

with just my SSD and empty 3TB connected?


TBU:

It would be a drive feature/option, typically using
a jumper. The BIOS would also have to support the larger
sizes too so it doesn't crash reading larger sectors, a
modern BIOS should be able to handle it.


My hunt for answers from Toshiba is a lost cause as their

support is a TOTAL joke and does NOT offer E-Mail support.


Soooooooooo, I'm here to find out if this "exposing the 4K

sector size" can, indeed, be done to my PH3300U-1I72, and

if so, EXACTLY how to go about doing it.


Thanks in advance for any help you can be.

Big Al


#2 Big_Al_C

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:52 PM

OK guys, course is changing a little:



I would make 5 partitions, 4 NTFS and one small FAT32.


I use Norton's Ghost weekly and it has issues with GPT.


I proceeded to contact various partitioning/cloning

 

software companies to see if their products could be

 

used in place of Ghost.


The partial exchange below is between TeraByte

 

Unlimited and me:

TBU:

"If your new drive uses 4K sector sizes you
wouldn't need to have a GPT."

Me:

Please elaborate.

BTW, This is what my present Toshiba 2TB looks like:

Attached File  BPS 512 BPPS + Cluster 4096.jpg   181.42KB   0 downloads


TBU:

If you expose the 4K sector size and not the emulated

normal 512 byte sector size, you can use an MBR and

use the entire space (up to 16TiB).

0xFFFFFFFF*512=2,199,023,255,040
0xFFFFFFFF*4096=17,592,186,040,320


Me:

With what software and what is the procedure to go

 

about doing this?

Can it be done via a Bootable CD or must it be done in

 

Windows with just my SSD and empty 3TB connected?


TBU:

It would be a drive feature/option, typically using
a jumper. The BIOS would also have to support the larger sizes too so it doesn't crash reading larger sectors, a modern BIOS should be able to handle it.


My hunt for answers from Toshiba is a lost cause as

 

their support is a TOTAL joke and does NOT offer

 

E-Mail support.

So, I'm here to find out if this "exposing the 4K

 

sector size" can, indeed, be done to my PH3300U-1I72,

 

and if so, EXACTLY how to go about doing it.

Also, are there any shortcomings to having the Toshiba

 

"exposing the 4K sector size" using 5 partitions, 4

 

NTFS and one small FAT32?


Big Al


Edited by Big_Al_C, 20 December 2013 - 11:57 PM.

#3 dietrc70

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 06:17 AM

I know nothing about how to expose the 4KB native mode on a Toshiba drive, but I think it would be better to leave it as is and use GPT.  You might run into unknown problems using 4KB sectors with MBR, not to mention with FAT32 partitions.  

 

Both Acronis Trueimage and Paragon's hard drive software support GPT.  If your only problem is finding a replacement for Ghost you shouldn't have a problem.


#4 MRFS

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:08 PM

We have 2 x micro ATX motherboards from ASRock, both with G41 chipsets.

 

I believe the Support CD that came with one of those boxed motherboards

contains a utility called "3TB.Unlocker".

 

Here is a .txt out from  DIR /OGN >log.txt

 

 Directory of E:\ASRock.G41M-S3\3TB.Unlocker

08/09/2011  05:41 AM    <DIR>          .
08/09/2011  05:41 AM    <DIR>          ..
08/06/2011  03:42 PM         1,171,078 3TBUnlocker.zip
03/30/2011  11:13 AM         1,259,336 ASR3TB+Unlocker_v1.0.exe
               2 File(s)      2,430,414 bytes
               2 Dir(s)  1,217,446,154,240 bytes free

 

 

See also:

 

http://www.asrock.co...TB/index.jp.asp

 

 

http://www.asrock.co...del=P67 Pro3 SE

 

http://www.newegg.co...ASRock P67 PRO3

 

With UEFI, you can enjoy 3TB bootable HDD size. (Windows Vista 64bit or Windows 7 64bit OS is required.)

 

 

See Page 60 in the motherboard User Manual for these instructions:

 

Installing OS on a HDD Larger Than 2TB

 

http://66.226.78.22/...P67 Pro3 SE.pdf


Edited by MRFS, 21 December 2013 - 05:17 PM.

#5 MRFS

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:15 PM

We routinely copy an entire Support CD to a hard drive

(to recover from possible optical disc failure).

 

Here's where I find that 3TB Unlocker in the folder structure

of the Support CD for one of our ASRock G41 motherboards:

 

 Directory of E:\ASRock.G41C-GS.cd-rom\Utilities\3TB+Unlocker\ASRock\Win7-64_Win7_Vista64_Vista_XP64_XP

03/09/2013  09:48 AM    <DIR>          .
03/09/2013  09:48 AM    <DIR>          ..
03/29/2011  08:13 PM         1,259,336 ASR3TB+Unlocker_v1.0.exe
               1 File(s)      1,259,336 bytes
               2 Dir(s)  1,217,446,154,240 bytes free
 

 

And, by viewing the ASRock web pages for that 3TB Unlocker,

it appears that the latest version is v1.1 .


#6 MRFS

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:31 PM

http://www.tomshardw...l1y-motherboard

 

[begin quote]

 

After you download the ASRock 3TB unlocker, you still need to convert the drive to a GPT http://msdn.microsof...dows/hardwar... so you can format a simple volume to 3 TB GPT Allows a much larger partition size--greater than 2 terabytes (TB), which is the limit for MBR disks

 

[end quote]

 

 

http://msdn.microsof...e/gg463524.aspx

 

 

http://www.hardwares...ck-Utility/5544

 

 

 

Google asrock 3tb unlocker how to use


#7 MRFS

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 06:03 PM

Here's another option:  we have two Highpoint RocketRAID 620 controllers

and they are running fine on older PCIe 1.0 chipsets.

 

Currently only $38 USD at Newegg here:

 

http://www.newegg.co...N82E16816115075

 

 

The README.txt file says this about the driver:

3. Revision History
====================

   v1.3.12.606  06/06/2012
       * Add support for over 2TB HDD.
       * Add recover array function.(Needing to use WebGUI v2.1 or later)

#8 MRFS

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 06:30 PM

One more thing:  I just looked at our User Manual for the Highpoint RocketRAID 620

and there is a discussion in that Manual of "VSS" -- Variable Sector Sizes.

 

Unless I am totally mistaken, I believe that feature was offered to permit

all MBR drives to exceed 2TB in size i.e. by increasing the basic sector size

from 512 byes to various larger options e.g. the other options are 1k, 2K and 4K sectors.

 

I also seem to remember that VSS support was provided by Highpoint's RAID controllers

BEFORE GPT and UEFI technologies were generally available.

 

The only downside I remember is that you cannot boot from a Highpoint controller

that uses VSS larger than 512 bytes.

 

For only $38 USD, the RocketRAID 620 is an excellent way to make use

of an empty x1 PCIe slot on your motherboard.


#9 Big_Al_C

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 06:48 AM

MRFS

>Hi, I run Windows 7 Pro SP-1 64-Bit

 

3TB.Unlocker http://www.asrock.co...e/3TB/index.asp

 

"The fantastic 3TB+ Unlocker tool offers a tweak-friendly feature, breaking the

limitation of 32-bit operation system that could only detect the hard disk within 2048GB."

 

>I installed Windows 7 on a pre-partitioned SSD

>The PH3200U-1I72 is used as storage only

>I bought a Toshiba PH3300U-1I72 3TB HDD to replace the 2TB

 

With UEFI, you can enjoy 3TB bootable HDD size.

Installing OS on a HDD Larger Than 2TB

 

>I use Norton's Ghost weekly and it has issues with GPT.

>"If your new drive uses 4K sector sizes you wouldn't need to have a GPT."

 

you still need to convert the drive to a GPT

 

Thanks for the effort.

 

Al


#10 MRFS

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 01:22 PM

>I use Norton's Ghost weekly and it has issues with GPT.

 

Yes, we also use GHOST here, and I understand your

hesitation to use another imaging program.

 

If you want to continue with GHOST and

you do NOT want to migrate to GPT,

my suggestion is to try the Highpoint RocketRAID 620

in an available x1 PCIe slot, and use the VSS feature

(variable sector size) when configuring a JBOD device

in Highpoint's Web RAID Management program.

 

You can download the User Manual for the RR620

from Highpoint's website.

 

 

I haven't used that VSS feature myself, but

I do recall that it has been a feature of

Highpoint's controllers for a long time.

 

And, as far as I know, its driver insulates

applications from the details of a non-standard sector,

as long as a VSS partition is NOT the C: system partition.

 

But, you would still need to test GHOST

with a sector size larger than 512 bytes,

both WRITING a drive image of C: to a VSS partition

and READING a drive image of C: from a VSS partition.

 

 

There is a lot to recommend 2 x bootable partitions

i.e. as the primary partitions on 2 different drives.

 

Then the GHOST Windows Program can do a restore quickly,

rather than waiting for the slow initialization that

is required for the GHOST optical disc to boot

into the restore environment.

 

However, Windows cannot boot from a partition

that does not use 512 byte sectors, if my memory is correct.

 

So, you would need a third HDD e.g. no larger than 2TB,

formatted normally, with a second bootable partition

to which you would restore an existing drive image of C: .

 

 

I don't believe that the RR620 will allow you to format

a 512-byte partition with a larger sector partition on the same HDD:

the entire JBOD must use one and only one VSS option.

 

 

Hope this helps.


Edited by MRFS, 22 December 2013 - 01:25 PM.

#11 MRFS

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:22 PM

This WD video is useful for users who need every little detail explained.

 

 

 

And, I do believe the HBA she is showing is a Highpoint Rocket 620 (no RAID support),

not RocketRAID 620.

 

The Rocket 620 is here at Newegg for  $30:

 

http://www.newegg.co...oint rocket 620

 

 

 

She errs by saying "ACHI" when the correct acronym is AHCI --

Advanced Host Controller Interface.

 

AND, TAKE NOTE CAREFULLY THAT THE PARTITION SHE FORMATS

IS ONLY 1.863 TB after a "Quick Format" !!!

 

That observation was confirmed in this Comment:

 

its showing 1863 gb means less than 2tb and not showing complete 3tb hard dive

 

 

I'd recommend the RocketRAID model 620, because it provides

more functionality, and you will have the option to choose a

VSS larger than 512 bytes per sector.

 

If you choose the RocketRAID 620, you will need to install

the Highpoint RAID Management software

(a Windows program), in order to select a VSS = 1k, 2K or 4K.

 

 

The video above does not cover the installation

of any HBA software:  that video appears to rely

upon factory defaults in the HBA being installed

in that video.

 

 

There is the following warning in the User Manual for RocketRAID 620:

 

"some types of data management or backup software

may not recognize the [VSS] array properly,

as they were designed to work with the default

Windows sector size of 512 bytes"

 

 

If your version of GHOST fails with a VSS >512,

you should try the default of 512 and

see if the RocketRAID 620 can format the entire 3TB.


#12 MRFS

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:31 PM

Confirming the vendor specs for the Rocket 620:

 

http://www.highpoint...cifications.htm

 

Support up to 2TB Hard Drives

 

 

So, you definitely do NOT want the Highpoint Rocket 620

(see in particular the error in WD's video above).


#13 MRFS

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:44 PM

FYI:  I posted this Tech Support issue at WDC's website today:

 



Western Digital Caviar Green 3TB Hard Drive Installation Video


At the very end, the partition formatted in that video
is only 1.863 TB, NOT the full 3 TB.

See the Comment under that video which says:

"its showing 1863 gb means less than 2tb and not showing complete 3tb hard drive"


I believe the HBA used in that video is the Highpoint model Rocket 620,
which does NOT support partitions larger than 2TB:

http://www.highpoint...cifications.htm

"Support up to 2TB Hard Drives"


See also our discussion here concerning 3TB HDDs and MBR partitions:

http://forums.storag...ned-as-all-mbr/


Thank you.


Sincerely yours,
/s/ Paul A. Mitchell, B.A., M.S.
Instructor, Inventor and Systems Development Consultant


#14 MRFS

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:33 PM

You've got me really interested in this question now,

because I may want to purchase one of these 3TB Toshiba HDDs

and see if my older versions of GHOST (9 and 10) still work

with one of these Toshiba HDDs when it is controlled

by a RocketRAID 620 (e.g. using VSS=1K instead of 512 bytes).

 

 

Also, check out the latest specs for: 

Symantec Ghost Solution Suite v.2.5

 

http://static.symant...ite 2.5_313.pdf

 

 

Support for FAT, FAT32. NTFS, non-boot GPT partitions,
native Linux ExT2 and ExT3

 

[end quote]

 

 

You mentioned that your version of GHOST has issues with GPT:

 

thus, according to the specs above, the latest edition of GHOST

should not have issues with "non-boot GPT partitions".

 

 

I read that to say your entire 3TB Toshiba could be formatted with one or more GPT partitions,

and this GHOST Solution Suite 2.5 should be able to WRITE drive images of your

C: system partition to that Toshiba HDD, formatted with GPT partition(s)

-AND- also restore drive images stored on that Toshiba HDD to your C: system partition.

 

 

See also:

 

http://us.norton.com/ghost

 

[begin quote]

 

An important update regarding Norton Ghost™

 

We’d like to share some important information with you, our valued Norton customer.
 

As of April 30, 2013, Symantec will discontinue sales of Norton Ghost, but

will continue to provide support via chat and knowledge base through June 30, 2014.

 

[end quote]


Edited by MRFS, 22 December 2013 - 04:35 PM.

#15 MRFS

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 05:53 PM

Another option for you is to format your 3TB Toshiba with GPT

and that should make the entire 3TB available to your OS.

 

Then, do NOT use GHOST to perform any I/O with that HDD.

 

Instead, continue to use GHOST to perform I/O with your Toshiba PH3200U-1I72,

and then use XCOPY in Command Prompt to move GHOST drive images

to and from the 3TB Toshiba.  We use a simple BATCH file which automates

this XCOPY task quite nicely.

 

If you don't mind a little file management, this is THE cheapest

functional solution I can think of, after giving your situation a lot of thought.

 

 

Another option I found for you is a feature in the excellent freeware Partition Wizard:

 

"Change Cluster Size":

 

In the left navigation column, under "Operations" see "Change Cluster Size":

 

http://www.partition...or-4k-disk.html

 

 

I believe this will work with an MBR partition and, if you haven't started

storing files on your 3TB Toshiba, this option is certainly worth a try

as a way of using all 3TB while keeping MBR.

 

 

Download the freeware version from here:

 

http://partitionwiza...on-manager.html


#16 Big_Al_C

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 08:36 PM

Dear MRFS,

   Boy, when you investigate an issue, YOU INVESTIGATE AN ISSUE!!

OK, First:


>because I may want to purchase one of these 3TB Toshiba HDDs

Well, it IS Christmas, and $100 ain't bad for 3TBs!

http://www.ebay.com/...0U-1I72&_sop=15

Or $113 at Walmart

http://www.walmart.c...-Drive/22236172


>Yes, we also use GHOST here, and I understand your

>hesitation to use another imaging program.

I have been a Ghost user since version 6.

I ALWAYS use it with DOS Bootable CDs I make with custom

Autoexec.bat files I write, NEVER Windows.

http://nightowl.radi...ootcdintro.html


My latest Ghost is v11.5.1.2269, which I found out from Symantec

has issues with GPT.


When I load my "Make C" CD, it loads Ghost, makes an image of

my C Drive and stores it on my E Drive as "Newest.gho".  It then

CRC checks (verifies) the image and then (if the image passes

inspection) shows a black screen with a blinking cursor.

At that screen, I remove my Bootable CD and reboot into Windows.


The image that Ghost makes can have ANY file deleted OR added

to the image using "Ghost Explorer" and will restore as if

it were never touched.


When I load my "Restore C" CD, it loads Ghost, goes to the

E Drive, finds "Newest.gho" and overwrites the C Partition.


If I want to clone a partition, I load my "Manual Ghost" CD,

it loads Ghost and I then select a partition on the "Source"

HDD and then find the proper sized empty partition on the

"Destination" HDD and tell Ghost to have at it.

If the source is Fat32 and the destination is NTFS, after

cloning, the destination is now Fat32.


You might want to bookmark these GREAT Ghost sites:

http://radified.com/...n/yabb2/YaBB.pl

http://nightowl.radi...ootcdintro.html


>I use Norton's Ghost weekly and it has issues with GPT.

After searching the Symantec site a LOT, the bottom line

was that my Ghost is v11.5.1.2269 (From Ghost Solution Suite

2.5) must be updated to v11.5.1.2298. I have no way to do

that and this came up too:

Does Ghost work with GPT partition tables?

The GPT supports up to 128 partitions and uses a false Master Boot

Record (MBR) with only one entry that points at the GPT. This is for

legacy compatibility reasons.

Because the Ghost virtual partition replaces the MBR with it's own

version, it will cause problems with systems that use a GPT.

AND   THIS   HORROR:

http://www.symantec....tent&id=DOC6587


HOWEVER, I'm a pretty good investigator too:


I found a way to make my 3TB FULLY accessible and set as MBR.

It's Acronis True Image, aka Seagates DiskWizard aka WD's version

of DiskWizard. It puts an "Extended Capacity Manager" in the boot

sector so you get one 2.1TB and one 700+GB partition, BOTH MBR.

See: Seagate DiscWizard CloneDisc For Drives Larger Than 3TB_Part-2



I'm STILL sticking with my Ghost Bootalbe CD's, but to get full MBR

I'll buy the Acronis if I HAVE to,UNLESS......

 
I just found this:


Make SURE the 3TB is EMPTY as this will wipe ALL data on the drive

To make a fully accessible 3TB with 4k sector:


1. Boot to desktop.

2. Open "My Computer" in Windows Explorer.

3. Click on the EMPTY 3TB HDD.

4. If the factory made some partitions on it, delete them all.

5. Once it is just one disk, right-click it and click "Format"

6. Select "4096", "NTFS" and "Format".

7. Click OK.  Since the 3TB is EMPTY, it should be real quick.

8. It's now ready to be partitioned to your liking up to 2.7 or so

   TB's total and is set as MBR.


NOW, I need feedback from anyone who has used these programs OR the

"4096", "NTFS" and "Format" method to see if the 3TBers work as any

other HDD would or are there any quirks that have come up since

partitioning your 3TB?

Please post to me.

Thanks in advance for your help.


#17 MRFS

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 10:03 PM

I don't have any 3TB HDDs, so I can't help you there.  Sorry!

 

 

Did you see my suggestion about staying with GPT on your 3TB Toshiba

and leaving your MBR partitions unchanged?

 

 

If I were in your shoes, if my budget were very limited, and

if I still had time to do a little file management programming,

here's what occurred to me, late today:

 

( a )  Windows can operate AOK with MBR partitions on one HDD

and GPT partitions on a second HDD, so format your 3TB Toshiba

with one or more GPT partitions:  that should utilize all available space

on that 3TB Toshiba (solving the first key problem);

 

( b )  designate one of your MBR partitions as the initial destination

when writing all GHOST drive images of C: ;  this will then eliminate

the need to buy any new software, and you can continue

running GHOST as you have been in the past, because it will

only be required to do I/O to and from MBR partitions with which

it has functioned AOK in the past (solving the second key problem

i.e. using your existing GHOST version, which eliminates

the cost of new software);

 

( c ) write a BATCH file (.bat suffix) that runs XCOPY

to make redundant copies of that latest drive image to

one or more of the partitions on your 3TB Toshiba HDD;

XCOPY uses internal Windows I/O routines and

as such it should perform I/O between MBR and GPT

partitions with no problems whatsoever;

 

( d ) ideally, if your chassis has an available drive bay,

you could retain your 2TB Toshiba, keep it in MBR mode,

and make sure your BATCH file also runs XCOPY

to make more redundant copies of that latest drive image to

one of more of the partitions on your 2TB Toshiba HDD;

these Toshiba HDDs are so large, a little extra redundancy

is well worth the extra work;  if your chassis does NOT have

an available drive bay, you can migrate your 2TB Toshiba

to an external USB enclosure (of which there are many

from which to choose);

 

( e )  on a routine schedule, something like once per quarter,

or once every 6 months, either delete the oldest drive images

that have accumulated, or move them to some other storage

medium before deleting them:  there are some really large

USB 3.0 flash drives now (e.g. 64GB), which will make it easy

to archive those older drive images at some off-site location

e.g. under your mattress.

 

 

There is one key advantage to the latter approach,

which makes it less risky than 4K sectors:

 

The key advantage is that all of your other software

should be be able to do I/O with both your MBR and

your GPT partitions, with the obvious exception of GHOST.

 

You'll need to do some testing over time, to confirm

that your other third-party software does not fail

when accessing your GPT partitions:

 

experience is a great teacher (and I think you already know that).

 

If you go with 4K sectors on your 3TB Toshiba,

you are taking a predictable risk that the other

software you have installed will NOT like

those 4K sectors.  My "take" on this option

is that it does entail more risk, chiefly the

combined risks that your existing version of GHOST

won't like those 4K sectors either, and

neither will other software that needs

to do I/O with a 4K MBR.

 

 

So, after that long-winded analysis,

my recommendation is this:

 

continue to use GHOST on MBR partitions

and ONLY on MBR partitions, because

you already have it working AOK on those MBR partitions

-AND-

do NOT use your existing version of GHOST

on any GPT partition(s) you create;

use XCOPY to read redundant copies

of drive images written by GHOST

and to write them to your GPT partition(s) e.g.

using a BATCH sequence like this,

where S: is the MBR partition where

the latest "folder" resides

 

X:

cd \

cd folder

erase *.* /q

S:

cd \

XCOPY folder X:\folder /s/e/v/d

 

Y:

cd \

cd folder

erase *.* /q

S:

cd \

XCOPY folder Y:\folder /s/e/v/d

 

Z:

cd \

cd folder

erase *.* /q

S:

cd \

XCOPY folder Z:\folder /s/e/v/d

 

 

Our BATCH sequence actually adds a

3-digit suffix number e.g. folder.001, folder.002

to "age" those archived drive images in that way:

"folder" is always the very latest drive image of C:

for purposes of "rolling back" one version.


#18 Big_Al_C

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:25 PM

MRFS,

Remember, my boot C Drive is on my MBR SSD.

My "Destination" drive for my Ghost images

is the E Drive, also on the SSD.


>Windows can operate AOK with MBR partitions

>on one HDD and GPT partitions on a second HDD

Since I use my "Manual Ghost" CD to do the

cloning, the GPT will be invisible to it.


>If you go with 4K sectors on your 3TB Toshiba,

>you are taking a predictable risk that the other

>software you have installed will NOT like

>those 4K sectors.


>chiefly the combined risks that your

>existing version of Ghost

>won't like those 4K sectors either, and

>neither will other software that needs

>to do I/O with a 4K MBR.


I built my computer in August, 2011.

I've pre-partitioned ALL of its HDD's

with EaseUS Partition Master and with

my "Manual Ghost" CD, cloned all of

the partitions from my initial 1TB

Hitachi HDD.


ALL 3 of my hard drives, 1, 2 and new 3TB

are the Advanced Format ones that I used

(not 3TB yet) their factory software to "Align".

So the "4096", "NTFS" and "Format" that will

(hopefully) be done to the 3TB has been serving

my 1 and 2TBers quite well for over 2 years

without any hiccups.

These are screens of my existing 2TB:

 

Attached File  ZZZ-POSSIBLE Fix.jpg   82.17KB   0 downloads

 

Attached File  BPS 512 BPPS + Cluster 4096.jpg   181.42KB   0 downloads

 

The bottom line is that I was after one of two things:

A version of Ghost that would "play nice" with both

MBR and GPT.

OR

A way to make my 3TB ALL MBR, so the "finding a newer

version of (or replacement for) Ghost" question becomes

moot.

I'll wait to hear back from people with 3TBers who

have gone the "4096", "NTFS" and "Format" route

and see if they experience any problems.

Big Al


#19 MRFS

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:20 PM

Since I use my "Manual Ghost" CD to do the cloning, the GPT will be invisible to it.

 

Yes, I understand that.

 

On the other hand, XCOPY can be run as a Windows Command Prompt command,

and the BATCH file I mentioned can do I/O between MBR and GPT partitions

with no problems, as far as I know, as long as that BATCH file is run from inside

Command Prompt.

 

So, use your "Manual Ghost" CD to write the latest drive image to E: (on your SSD):

this approach leaves that much of your existing procedure intact;

 

then boot to the Windows Desktop and run a BATCH program that invokes XCOPY inside Command Prompt

to write redundant copies to a GPT partition which spans all 3TB on your Toshiba HDD.

 

 

You could also change your procedure substantially by

running GHOST inside Windows: we've been doing that

successfully ever since GHOST Version 9, and

we do the same with GHOST Version 10.

 

 

A version of Ghost that would "play nice" with both MBR and GPT.

 

Didn't Symantec already recommend one that does so?

 

In this context, if I were you I would also download the free version of

Acronis True Image Western Digital Edition, and just take it for a "test drive".

 

Be aware that it will NOT install if there are no Western Digital HDDs

installed on your system, however.

 

 

p.s.  I could try purchasing my own 3TB Toshiba and do some experimentation here:

 

we have workstations running both Windows XP/Pro and Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit versions.

 

We also have 2 x Highpoint RocketRAID 620 controllers, one running with an Intel G41 chipset

and one running with a legacy Intel 915 chipset (both PCIe 1.0).

 

But, I would purchase that HDD from Newegg, the turnaround is about 7-10 days from today.


Edited by MRFS, 24 December 2013 - 01:21 PM.

#20 MRFS

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 02:15 PM

FYI:  recommended links to GPT v. MBR documentation:

 

 

http://msdn.microsof...e/gg463525.aspx

 

http://www.petri.co....based-disks.htm

 

http://msdn.microsof...785(VS.85).aspx


#21 MRFS

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 06:19 PM

Quick Update:

 

I just took delivery of that Toshiba 3TB HDD.

 

I don't have time to go into lots of details,

but I wanted to report the main findings so far

with my experimentation.

 

I connected it to one of the integrated SATA ports

on an ASRock G41M-S3 micro ATX motherboard,

which runs in 3G SATA-II mode.

 

(The CPU is an Intel E5300 with SpeedStep enabled

and overclocked with a Bus Speed = 240 MHz (Rated FSB = 960 MHz)

and 8GB DDR3 DRAM Frequency overclocked to 480 MHz.)

 

 

To test the most probable configuration,

Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit detected that 3TB HDD

and needed to load driver support,

which required a re-boot.

 

After re-booting, I easily formatted it

as a single GPT partition, and all 3TB

were properly detected and fully formatted.

 

 

Then, I moved that Toshiba 3TB to a port

on the Highpoint RocketRAID 2720SGL

that is installed in the x16 PCIe 1.0 slot

in that same motherboard.

 

I initialized it as a JBOD device, and

formatted the entire HDD as an MBR volume

by choosing a 1K sector size instead of a 512 byte sector size.

 

This initialization was done with the Highpoint Web RAID Management

software, which comes with that 2720SGL controller:  the latest version

should be downloaded from the Highpoint website.

 

Also, the "cluster" setting was set to DEFAULT

which maintained the same cluster size of 4K

(4 sectors @ 1K instead of 8 sectors @ 512 bytes).

 

This is where problems started to show up.

 

Predictably, some programs simply did NOT recognize

that 3TB partition, e.g. SystemSuite Professional

was unable to perform a disk check, because it did

not recognize the formatting.

 

Windows CHKDSK works OK, by comparison (as expected).

 

Similarly, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit had no problems

executing an XCOPY command which copied a large drive image

that was previously written by Acronis True Image Western Digital Edition

to the default destination partition on another HDD already installed

in that PC (a WDC VelociRaptor).

 

 

So, I was correct in my overall expectations

(see the rest of this topic above).

 

 

Another expectation was also confirmed:

 

by comparing ATTO measurement results

with a 3G interface and with a 6G interface,

the latter just broke 200 MB/second,

whereas the former seems to max out

at about 192 MB/second.

 

So, interface speed does have a measurable

effect on overall performance.

 

And, I did not notice any difference between

the GPT volume with 512 byte sectors

and the MBR volume with 1K sectors::

both were connected to a 6G SATA-III port and

both max out around 200 MB/second.

 

Either way, the measured performance

of that rotating HDD is excellent --

coming right up to the speed we have

measured with a 10,000 rpm WDC VelociRaptor

using the popular ATTO software.

 

Hope this helps.


Edited by MRFS, 28 December 2013 - 09:56 AM.

#22 MRFS

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 07:06 PM

FYI:  here's the output of a DIR command in Windows Command Prompt,

after using XCOPY to archive 13 x folders on that Toshiba 3TB,

each folder saving drive images written by Acronis True Image Western Digital Edition.

 

That partition was reverted to a standard GPT volume, with 512 byte sectors:

 

 

 Volume in drive K is New Volume
 Volume Serial Number is 4C50-D435

 Directory of K:\

12/27/2013  02:56 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images
12/27/2013  03:59 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.001
12/27/2013  03:58 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.002
12/27/2013  03:57 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.003
12/27/2013  03:56 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.004
12/27/2013  03:55 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.005
12/27/2013  03:54 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.006
12/27/2013  03:52 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.007
12/27/2013  03:51 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.008
12/27/2013  03:50 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.009
12/27/2013  03:49 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.010
12/27/2013  03:47 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.011
12/27/2013  03:46 PM    <DIR>          acronis.images.012
               0 File(s)              0 bytes
              13 Dir(s)  2,808,403,369,984 bytes free


Edited by MRFS, 27 December 2013 - 07:07 PM.

#23 MRFS

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 10:49 PM

p.s.  Here are the settings that I used above, and

the settings that I did not use, with this 3TB Toshiba HDD:

 

http://www.toshiba.c...TB/PH3300U-1I72

 

 

I did not connect that Toshiba 3TB HDD to any Windows XP 32-bit systems:

 

I only connected it to 2 different ports on a Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit system:

 

( a )  integrated 3G SATA-II motherboard port;  and,

 

( b )  6G SATA-III port on a Highpoint RocketRAID 2720SGL PCIe x8 RAID controller

 

 

I tried a GPT volume on the 3G motherboard port, but no MBR volume on that port;

and I tried both GPT and MBR volumes on the RocketRAID 6G port.

 

 

On the MBR volume, I did try a sector size of 1K (NOT 512 bytes),

using the VSS (variable sector size) setting supported by that

Highpoint RocketRAID 2720SGL PCIe RAID controller.

 

I did not try any sector sizes of 512, 2K or 4K on that MBR volume.

 

 

The GPT volume was first wired to a 3G SATA-II integrated port

on that ASRock G41M-S3 micro ATX motherboard.

 

That motherboard has an Intel G41 chipset with standard BIOS, no UEFI technology.

 

For the latter reason, I did not try booting the OS from that 3TB Toshiba HDD.

 

 

The GPT volume was next hosted by a 6G port on the Highpoint RocketRAID 2720SGL.

 

The 2720SGL's Option ROM reported a 6G (600 MB/second) interface speed.

 

The sector size on that GPT volume was left at DEFAULT (512 bytes per sector).

 

The cluster size on that GPT volume was left at DEFAULT (8 sectors @ 512 bytes = 4K).

 

I did not try any other cluster sizes.

 

 

All volumes were "basic" type;  I did not try the "dynamic" type.

 

All tests and measurements were done in "JBOD" mode, NOT any RAID modes.

 

 

I searched Toshiba's website, but did not find any mention of "advanced format"

for that 3TB Toshiba (see link to Toshiba's website above).

 

 

Here's an ATTO result on a short-stroked (50GB) primary partition

(i.e. outermost tracks on that 3TB Toshiba HDD), GPT volume hosted by a

6G port on the Highpoint RocketRAID 2720SGL x8 PCIe RAID controller:

 

 

1xToshiba.3TB.Highpoint.RocketRAID.2720S


Edited by MRFS, 27 December 2013 - 10:55 PM.

#24 Big_Al_C

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:54 PM

MRFS,

Sorry for the delay, but holidays and all.


>I searched Toshiba's website...

http://storage.toshi...ced_format.html

The Paragon Alignment Tool for Toshiba AF 512e Drives (PAT) has been

specially optimized for Toshiba AF 512e hard drives.


E-Mailing Toshiba got me this: The PAT for Toshiba AF 512e Drives

is STRICTLY an Alignment tool, NOT a "MBR fixer" such as Seagate

and WD's version of Acronis's Extended Capacity Manager have for

 

their 3TBers, like the YouTube I posted above.


>I only connected it to 2 different ports on a Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit system

You might want to check these out.  LOTS of info and NEW Intel Drivers

http://www.servetheh...rd-drive-issue/

http://www.intel.com...sftwr-prod/imsm

https://downloadcent...D=7838&lang=eng


Well, I HATE to admit defeat, but since I CANNOT find the

Ghost v11.5.1.2298 from GSS 2.5.1 that DOES see GPT HDD's,

I've concluded that my only recourse is to relegate my 3TB to

GPT and to BACKUP status to my 2TB Toshiba and dusted-off 1TB

Hitachi MBR HDD's that I'll be using as my main drives.


After numerous E-Mails to a bunch of Cloning Software companies,

I've settled on MiniTool Partition Wizard v8.1.1 from

http://www.partitionwizard.com (To top it off, it's FREE!!!)

to pre-partition my 3TBer and to do the "Copy partitions from

my 1 and 2TB MBR's to partitions on my 3TB GPT" and use my

Ghost v11.5.1.2269's Make and Restore Bootable CD's to do my

MBR C and D Drive imaging chores.


What I will be doing is have the 3TB in a Kingwin KF-813-BK

Mobile Rack

http://kingwin.com/p...s/kf_813_bk.asp

installed in my computer case with the power turned "off".

After letting Ghost make a new image of my C or D Drive and

dumping it on the E Drive, I'll shut down, turn the 3TB's key

"On", start the computer and then copy the newly made image(s)

to the E partition on the 3TB as a backup.


Again, I HATE to admit defeat, but this has eaten up enough of

my time and I'm "Puttin it to bed" today.

I'll keep this page on a shortcut and check it periodically to

see if anyone has come up with a link for the Ghost.exe v11.5.1.2298

that would solve this problem, but I'm not holding my breath!

Again, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your extensive input.

Big Al


#25 MRFS

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:59 PM

FYI:  here's one of the Windows BATCH programs

that we run to "scatter" redundant copies of the latest drive image

to all other partitions on one workstation.  Each hard drive has

2 partitions:  the first is identical in size to C: and the second

is a dedicated data partition. 

 

Typical command line in Widows Command Prompt:

 

do.images NNN

 

Where,

 

NNN  =  3-digit serial number (to "age" older drive images)

 

 

prompt $m$t $p$g
K:
cd \

:: check for command line parameter
if "%1" == "" goto nosuffix

copy K:\image.history.txt C:\disk-e\image.history.txt
copy K:\image.history.txt K:\image.history.bak
copy K:\image.history.bak C:\disk-e\image.history.bak

copy K:\do.images.bat C:\disk-e\do.images.bat
copy K:\do.images.bat C:\disk-e\do.images.bak

copy K:\image.history.txt K:\images\

copy K:\image.history.txt F:\image.history.txt
copy K:\image.history.txt G:\image.history.txt
copy K:\image.history.txt I:\image.history.txt
copy K:\image.history.txt J:\image.history.txt
copy K:\image.history.txt L:\image.history.txt
copy K:\image.history.txt M:\image.history.txt

copy K:\image.history.bak F:\image.history.bak
copy K:\image.history.bak G:\image.history.bak
copy K:\image.history.bak I:\image.history.bak
copy K:\image.history.bak J:\image.history.bak
copy K:\image.history.bak L:\image.history.bak
copy K:\image.history.bak M:\image.history.bak

copy K:\do.images.bak F:\do.images.bat
copy K:\do.images.bak G:\do.images.bat
copy K:\do.images.bak I:\do.images.bat
copy K:\do.images.bak J:\do.images.bat
copy K:\do.images.bak L:\do.images.bat
copy K:\do.images.bak M:\do.images.bat

copy K:\do.images.bak F:\do.images.bak
copy K:\do.images.bak G:\do.images.bak
copy K:\do.images.bak I:\do.images.bak
copy K:\do.images.bak J:\do.images.bak
copy K:\do.images.bak L:\do.images.bak
copy K:\do.images.bak M:\do.images.bak

F:
cd \
cd images
erase *.* /q
cd ..

G:
cd \
rename images images.%1
md images

rem H:
rem cd \
rem cd images
rem erase *.* /q
rem cd ..

I:
cd \
rename images images.%1
md images

J:
cd \
cd images
erase *.* /q
cd ..

L:
cd \
cd images
erase *.* /q
cd ..

M:
cd \
cd images
erase *.* /q
cd ..


K:
cd \
xcopy images F:\images /s/e/v/d
xcopy images G:\images /s/e/v/d
xcopy images I:\images /s/e/v/d
xcopy images L:\images /s/e/v/d
xcopy images M:\images /s/e/v/d

I:
cd \
xcopy images J:\images /s/e/v/d


K:
cd \
goto done
::
:: Error: no command line parameter
:nosuffix
echo OFF
echo No suffix number on command line.
echo ON
::
:done
K:
cd \
prompt $m$p$g
rem
rem Finished do.images.bat on Workstation N
rem

 






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